Well Wisconsin Radio
Hosted by Senior Program Manager, Renee Fox
A podcast discussing topics of health and well-being from experts around the State of Wisconsin. Tune into Well Wisconsin Radio whenever you want and wherever you are! Subscribe to Well Wisconsin Radio in the podcast platform of your choice to be notified when each new episode is released. Let’s tackle 2023 together through learning and seeking opportunities to be in the moment.
Note to those eligible for the 2023 Well Wisconsin Incentive: only episodes of Well Wisconsin Radio from season 2, dated November 2022 and later will qualify for well-being activity credit.
Host: Hello and welcome to Well Wisconsin Radio, a podcast discussing health and wellbeing topics with experts from all around the state of Wisconsin. I’m your host Renee Fox, and my guest today is Daxn Tyler. Dan’s full-time job is an engineer with the Department of Transportation. He is a long-time champion for wellness and is a volunteer member of the Region one Wellness Works Committee. Through this committee, Dan has led weekly drop-in mindfulness sessions for his state colleagues since December 2018, which you are all invited to. He has completed the mindfulness-based stress reduction course through UW Health, as well as teacher training intensive. For more than a decade, he has studied and practiced yoga and meditation, including periods of silent retreat. Dan, thank you for joining us today.
Guest: Thanks a lot, Renee, and welcome everybody. Glad to be here.
Host: Dan, can you start our conversation today by giving an overview of the practice of mindfulness?
Guest: Yeah, the practice of mindfulness. A lot of people, maybe I’ll quick mention what mindfulness is not and then mention what it is, because as people tune into this episode, maybe they have some experience or maybe they are just curious and mindfulness isn’t about trying to create some special state or make some big change happen, but it’s really about dropping into what’s happening right now. It’s about touching in with our innate capacity for awareness or, or being alive or awake, you could say. And in that way, it’s extremely simple. It’s not always totally easy. Here’s an example maybe as a way to, to start about what is the practice of mindfulness? Any of the listeners could right now even take just a moment and listen to what sounds are happening. Okay, so that was a ten second mindfulness of sound practice. Yeah. Um, how about any listener? Even if you’re, you might be sitting, you could be driving in your car. Take just a take a minute and have a breath here at the beginning of this session. What does it feel like to take a deep breath? You know, a lot of times in life somebody might say, especially, uh, you can picture a time when someone might be having some distress or they’re worked up and say, take a deep breath, you know, and how often do you really do that? And you don’t have to be in a situation of distress to take a deep breath and. Get in touch with what’s happening right now. So these are a number of different doorways to the present moment. You could say, listening to the sound that’s there, feeling what’s happening in the body, feeling the breath come and go, even looking at something. These are all. Simple practices of what you could call mindfulness. A definition that I like is the awareness that arises by paying attention on purpose in the present moment.
Host: I love that reminder. Paying attention on purpose in that present moment. Can you talk more, Dan, about using mindfulness as a technique for managing stress?
Guest: Yeah, absolutely. And this is probably one of the most practical or one of the ways.
People are looking for a technique like this. Maybe people who tune into this podcast have some stress or distress in their life, or just some kind of unease, right? And often what’s happening, what’s behind that is that our minds are busy, and there’s no problem with that, by the way, you know, some people think some kind of mindfulness practice is about sitting down and clearing the mind. Good news, bad news, ladies and gentlemen. Um, the mind makes thoughts and that’s part of being a human and it’s super useful to have thoughts, isn’t it? Right? That’s how we can have this conversation. It’s how we can have big plans and dreams. It’s how we can know, learn from the past, but the mind also continues to make thoughts without our even realizing a lot of the time. Right? You probably know. it ruminates about things in the past and makes projections about the future. As a matter of fact, scientists put people in an MRI brain scanner and they ask them, uh, don’t think about anything. And a moment later, regions of the brain lit up that were associated with usually about their sense of self. And the brain started predicting things. It’s trying to help; it’s trying to give great ideas and helpful predictions. Oh, what if this, or, and I bet any of us can imagine that kind of situation. And then before we know it, we’re lost. We’re away as if that’s really happening. And a lot of the times, stress reactions in the body occur as if those thoughts or visions or whatever are actually unfolding. And so the practice of mindfulness is inviting. Uh, inviting a person to drop into what’s really happening right now. Not to say that they don’t have thoughts, but to recognize a difference between those thoughts that the mind is making and sort of hijacking us versus what’s really happening. Another thing about stress that’s important is that stress resides in the body. You know, as we go about the day, without knowing it, stress will build up. You can imagine, maybe even take just a second right now, and maybe you’re sitting or standing, even driving is okay, just continue to watch the road. But if you, um, bring your attention to your head and face, do you notice that your eyes are squinting, or the jaw is clench? Or maybe, um, in the neck, the shoulders maybe are hunching up, especially if you sit at a desk or a, a computer throughout the day. Right? That can be the, just the course of your day, the stresses of the day, building up in the body. And what’s really interesting, it’s a little paradoxical. Mindfulness practice isn’t a relaxation practice per say, and that’s good news. We’ll talk about that a little later. But what often happens is that when some awareness is brought to the body, we notice that we’re clenching or tight or holding on, and that stress is physically residing there in the body. So that’s two, that two important things about stress. One, the mental activity that’s bringing us away from what’s really happening and causing, and then there can be physical manifestations, distress, the two really go hand in hand.
Host: Yeah. Are there additional health benefits associated with mindfulness, such as using it for pain management?
Guest: Yeah, I think that’s a, that dovetails right onto the previous question. So, um, imagine now. You sit down and you want to relax, maybe you can’t clear the mind. And we’ve said, okay, thoughts can be present. We’ll talk about that a little more later. But maybe you sit down and want to relax. You bring some awareness to the, the head and neck and shoulders, for example. And they won’t relax. They’re tight. Maybe their chronic pain is present, or an illness is present. What’s really interesting is that there’s, there may be pain present and rather than pain especially, maybe take, uh, I’ll invite the listeners again to take just a few seconds and, uh, maybe bring some attention to the body and notice there might be some discomfort somewhere. It could be serious pain or some discomfort. And I wonder if you. name, that if instead of saying there’s pain or problems, is it, what’s the real, what’s the bear sensation? You know, is there throbbing, tingling, tightness? And that might be mild or dull or whatever. And. You might, if you practice with this just gently, you don’t have to dive into the worst pain imaginable. But with a mindfulness practice over time, inspecting something like pain, you might notice that there are the sensations that are occurring, like throbbing or tingling, and then there’s an overlay that the mind. Right. It says that this is called pain. This is my pain. This is part of who I am. This will never go away. This happened to me. This isn’t fair. This shouldn’t have happened to me. Can anyone relate to these stories and on and on, and layer upon layer upon layer. And even if it might seem so solid at first, those really are layers that the mind is adding on top of something like tingling or tent tightness, right? And so the mindfulness practice can really come into something like pain management. Don’t get me wrong, this can be a, you know, this can be a practice over time, but it can also be really revolutionary to some people. Yeah, that, um, something like pain can be approached just for what it is. So, um, part of a mindfulness practice is a sort of practice of dropping into what is with a, with a quality of letting go, even a, an openness or kindness to what’s present. Now, an openness in letting to go doesn’t mean giving. Doesn’t mean that someone shouldn’t seek medical attention or, um, maybe do a course of physical therapy to address pain. But if you really get right down to it, let’s say we sit down right in this moment, right in this moment. I’m sitting, I’m sitting here, and maybe there’s pain in the body. Well, that just, it, that just is right. So there’s a, a difference between sort of a process of taking care of oneself and maybe. Mindfulness moment of just being with things as they are without trying to manipulate or struggle with them, because that’s where pain is one thing and then the suffering comes in from them. The struggle to try to make the situation different than it is.
Host: That’s really great perspective. Can you tell us now to kind of shift gears and talk a little bit more about your experience and, how you got into mindfulness and what attracted you to this practice?
Guest: Yeah, I, I’d imagine many people can relate to a situation, maybe a time in their life when they had particular amount of stress. I had a particular time in my life where I was, feeling quite anxious and had a number of difficulties. And so I went to seek some help about that and spoke with someone about, About the situation, and they mentioned this mindfulness-based stress reduction program. It’s something that I’ve been through a number of times by now, but it was really my first exposure to mindfulness.
There’s a number of mindfulness programs out there. Um, they’ve, they’ve really, they’re worldwide Now. This particular one, it’s called MBSR for short, was founded, um, at the University of Massachusetts Medical Center some 40 years ago. This particular doctor had patients that other doctors had, I don’t want to say given up on, but they, had big problems and they were just suffering from them. You know, they maybe had a, a chronic pain or an illness that was mysterious or, they couldn’t come up with something else. And so he said, well, let me try, let me try this mindfulness protocol to try to tease apart the pain from the suffering, and not surprisingly, it was highly effective for many people. And so, Dr. John Kabat Zinn developed this mindfulness-based stress reduction program, which is an eight week, often clinically implemented program. Um, there are sessions all around the country and around the world. So listeners might consider something like this, um, as a way of. Getting a structured approach to mindfulness practices. So that was my first exposure, and it was really a game changer. It really helped me approach, um, uh, some of those, uh, anxieties and difficulties differently. It’s not like overnight all my problems went you know, so shortly into the podcast here, folks, sorry. Spoiler alert, mindfulness is not going to make your problems go away. It’s not going to make the world’s problems go away. However, it can be really a revolutionary, um, mind shift, a shift of perspective of how one approaches problems. And in that way, you know, you can in fact solve some of the world’s great problems. So that was my first exposure and, because I had found it to be very useful, I continued practicing on my own. I sought out some other groups for support in my mindfulness practice, and then over time, after more practice and study, I’ve spent, a little time on retreat. A daily practice is extremely useful and should some people, especially the listeners who have experience with mindfulness, you might consider, you know, spending a, a longer period of time with a practice, which really, um, opens up some different insights into the mind when you’re able to dedicate a little longer period of time to it.
Host: Oh, wonderful. Thank you for sharing your story too. What made you decide to go from practicing mindfulness to then leading it? Like you’re leading the weekly, um, twice a week session for anyone who’s part of the group health insurance program through the state of Wisconsin can explore that resource. We have it linked in the well Wisconsin portal. Also, our listeners can find the link to your live sessions in our show notes for this podcast and also the resource that you mentioned when you got started on practicing mindfulness, that is also linked in our show notes.
Guest: Wonderful. Yeah, I encourage anyone to follow some of those links. We have some recordings from my sessions. Um, I’m, I’m not the only one out there, but if, uh, if my style resonates with you, then you know, please join either live or, uh, through some of the recordings. One of the things that happened, um, it was five years ago, my agency moved, uh, facilities. I worked for the Department of Transportation. A number of state agencies moved into a new building, and when that happened, a number of people got together and formed a wellness committee. We were, um, uh, interested in helping support people. Healthy habits, healthy behaviors across a number of different agencies. And we put out a poll to all the folks who had gotten together in the new building, sort of kicking off this new chapter of life in a way. And we asked about things that might, uh, programming that might help their, um, their wellness pursuits. Mindfulness was something that showed up in a lot of those surveys that people were really interested in. Many people were interested in mindfulness, hundreds as a matter of fact. And at that point I had some experience with practice and training and thought, well, um, how about if we offer some drop-in mindfulness sessions and see if there’s any in. So that’s what we did. A number of people attended; we were doing that weekly. Some people from other offices had heard about it and um, asked, you know, I wonder if you could add an online component so we could join as well. And so I piloted that and, uh, wouldn’t you know it, it was just after that we left the office for Covid. I knew at that time that there was more suffering than. A lot of people had a lot of distress. And so one of the small ways that I felt like maybe I could make a little difference was to continue offering mindfulness and to offer an additional session that might make it more accessible to more people. And now that’s been. Some three years. And, um, I offer those sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays online so that people can join in from anywhere. So it started, I think from my own desire to offer this as a practice that people could maybe find a kind of a refuge, a respite from the day. Give them, uh, some additional fuel or maybe courage or a replenishment to take on the day. Right? Letting go is not about giving up, but the old adage, you can’t pour from an empty cup. Think about that in your own lives, whether you’re a parent, a caregiver, uh, a manager, a leader, a person who interacts with anybody at any level, it’s important that, uh, you take time. However, allows you to recharge your batteries. So, uh, you know, here in this context, I’d suggest a mindfulness practice for many people is a great way to recharge in that way. Even in a busy life, even a busy person, uh, can benefit from a little period of dropping in if nothing else has a reset. So the mind, you can touch base with the mind, what stories is the mind spinning up versus what’s really happening, what’s really happening in the body? Where might stress be building up?
Who couldn’t benefit from that? Yeah, absolutely. It’s such a great resource. And also having the recorded version that allows you to do that at whatever time in the day is most helpful.
Host: Wonderful. In addition to practicing the guided meditations that you do, are there other routines of mindfulness that you find most helpful personally, that you’ve incorporated in your routine.
Guest: Yeah, I have a pretty regular yoga practice and yoga means a lot of things to different people, but at its basic, you could say yoga is movement and breath combined. So whether this is going into a studio and doing something that’s sweaty and athletic, or even just moving the body as breath comes and goes. If it could be considered a moving meditation. I have a daily mindfulness practice. I’ve found that to be beneficial. It comes and goes, you know, I, I’m not some kind of a, a master practitioner. None of us are. All of us have our cycles. It’s not easy to start a new habit. It’s um, uh, things do come and go. But I’ve found that when I can keep up a regular mindfulness practice, it helps me remain grounded just that little more. It might also be worth noting you don’t have to wait for a period of big stress to try mindfulness because it can change the baseline, so to speak. Yeah. You know, one of the findings about mindfulness is that it can help people become more adaptable, more resilient, and so practice during the good times and develop this skillset that you can apply during times that are more difficult. Mm, great recommendation. Maybe I could, thank you. And maybe I could pick up quick on that the idea that attention is a skill, mindfulness is a skill. Uh, and so there are particular practices, even if they seem really basic to train the attention. And that’s a lot of what’s happening here. So, um, you know, you could consider it a stress relief technique. I also think that frankly, it’s a business proposition. Uh, how beneficial is it that someone is able to. Pay attention when they’re talking to a customer, a client, a coworker. Um, some people, a misconception is that, well, if I sit and meditate, I’m going to lose my edge. I won’t be able to perform in business. Well, I, I’d suggest that quite the opposite. If you could show up more fully for your business interactions, maybe even in a difficult negotiation or in the courtroom or something, imagine if you were really present to be able to read the other people that you’re interacting with or negotiating with. Yeah. Sounds to me like a superpower. So there are many ways, um, many applications, uh, for a practice like this. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maybe since you asked about my own practice, this might be a, a place to quick touch on the idea of, you know, what’s the difference between mindfulness and meditation? What do these words mean anyway? One, uh, teacher and scientist I know, he’ll say the word meditation is kind of like the word sports. Like what does that include? All sorts of things. A huge range, um, that are really quite varied, right. In how and what they are and how people practice them. And so, um, some people when they do meditation practice that, you know, it could be a religious practice, but it doesn’t have to be.
All of these are different types of practices. A meditation, you might say is some kind of practice with the mind, and a very, very broad term. Mindfulness is a subset of that. It’s a particular. Kind of a practice, and so mindfulness is about paying attention. You don’t have to sit in a particular way. You don’t have to twist your legs into a pretzel or float off into nirvana. Um, you know, if, if, uh, you sit in, achieve enlightenment, all the better. You know? But this is not a, a prerequisite for the practice. It’s not a religious practice. It’s not something where you have to believe something. Yeah. These are some common misconceptions about mindfulness. So, really at its heart, mindfulness is a practice of paying attention. Mm-hmm. Paying attention on purpose. Yeah. Just to what’s happening. Yeah.
Host: Yeah. So if, if someone is new and really wanting to try mindfulness, would something like joining your guided meditation be a helpful place to start versus doing something individually on their own with meditation? And can you talk a little bit more about that first experience and what it might be like for someone just joining and trying this for the first time?
Guest: I think the first step is to really give it a try because, it’s an experienced practice. It’s like if you want to get in shape and you talk about going to the gym and you read books about getting in shape and you listen to podcasts about getting in shape. Become any more in shape. Maybe that improves your knowledge or your motivation. Excellent. But it’s about doing the reps, so to speak. So my first encouragement to anyone is to give a practice a try. One way or another, even if it seems foreign. Um, you have to drop in because it’s an experienced practice. Right? Many people find that a guided practice is helpful, especially at the. Because there are a few specific techniques that can, um, uh, help shape someone’s, uh, experience. Mm. Now some people might find that just a silent practice is helpful. Maybe set a timer. And do a practice on their own or in quiet. Many people, especially at the beginning, find that a guided practice is more helpful. Um, I’ll leave that up to you and people can give it a try. There are many resources. This, for example, the live sessions I lead and their recordings, there are a number of different apps. Some of them are free, some have a nominal fee. Some include, um, guided practices of varying lengths. So it’s becoming more accessible and, uh, more available to, um, to people to practice.
Host: Hmm. Yeah. So how often would you recommend someone practice mindfulness? Whether they’re just beginning this and wanting to build a routine or maybe they’re experienced? Is there a recommendation of how frequently that should be incorporated into your routine?
Guest: Sure. Maybe I’ll take that in two parts. So a beginner bear in mind, starting a new habit is almost never. But it can be worth it. So I guess I’d encourage, um, the person who’s new and considering this, think about the kinds of things that often make a new habit successful. Inspecting your motivation is a good first step, but then, um, Maybe deciding to give it a try for, say, daily for three weeks or six times a week over the course of the next month. Try a challenge. Some of the apps and resources offer challenges that if you’re inclined to that kind of thing. That could be a great place to start. The mindfulness sessions that I lead can count as an employer sponsored activity through the mine, uh, through the well Wisconsin program. If you come to seven of those sessions, why seven? Well, in hopes that that might help you get a, uh, a new routine started. So that’s one way too. Um, starting out with something that’s approachable can be really helpful to starting a new habit. So maybe you want to try practicing five minutes a day. Do you have five minutes somewhere? Three minutes a day? You could, uh, set a timer or an alarm or even an Outlook reminder. Maybe there’s a period in your workday where you know that there’s a chance you could get a breather that could be a chance to, instead of maybe mindlessly scrolling or um, uh, uh, maybe mindlessly eating. What are some of the things that we reach for when there’s a little bit of gap in time? Maybe a mindfulness practice could occupy a little of that for some people will carve out time, um, maybe in the morning so that you can make a priority. I know everybody is busy. It’s not like it’s easy to come up with more time. Um, however, uh, some of us find that when you can add a healthy habit into your life, the rest of your day has a different kind of energy about it altogether. So part B and maybe someone who’s more experienced, or as a segue, I remember a wise teacher was once asked, um, uh, a teacher, how long should I meditate every day? And they said, well, meditate for 20 minutes if you don’t have 20 minutes, meditate for an hour, think about that one. Now that might seem outrageous for many people, but uh, especially if you do have some experience, um, consider how a daily practice might support you or maybe even almost every daily, right? It’s not about perfection, but a habit of practicing Mindfulness can slowly, slowly over. Help build resilience, change, uh, maybe even sort of change life outlook and can contribute to your daily wellbeing.
Host: Mm-hmm. So for our listeners who have children out there, do you have any recommendations for incorporating some mindfulness or meditation into their lives?
Guest: I think it’s wonderful to introduce children to mindfulness and they in many cases are open to it, maybe even more than some of us and need it. I think back on my own life, I think there are times when I was younger and had difficulty and sometimes was, I had strong emotions, probably like many of you, and I just remember being, feeling so powerless, not knowing what to do with. and that would off, how would that come out? Maybe shouting or acting out? Right. Uh, this manifests in different ways with different people, whether they’re children or adults. And so, um, we’re starting to see it actually mindfulness showing up in schools, police forces, universities all over the place. Society is recognizing that we have stress and that we need skillful ways to deal with stress. Now quickly, mindfulness is not for everyone. It might not, these practices might not resonate with everyone, some people with different, um, uh, neurological conditions or ways that their mind sees the world. Some of these practices may not fit well, um, to be clear. However, for many people, something as simple as a few minutes of paying attention. It can be a helpful way to reset the nervous system. So, to the question about children, there are a couple of, um, real practical ways you might imagine. Um, something like a snow globe that, uh, a child could shake and set it in front of them. And the analogy is that’s like their feelings. Maybe they have strong feelings and that’s like shaking the snow globe and allowing a few breaths. Or some kind of a, something that’s real in the present moment, feeling what’s present in the body. What does the breath feel like as the snow in the globe slowly settles? So too might the breath be slowly settling. Another practice that I think is, uh, great for kids, um, lying down on the floor, maybe on their back with their favorite stuffy they can put on their tummy and take some breaths and watch their friend ride up and down riding the waves. One analogy for the mindfulness experience can be like riding the waves of life. It goes up and, we’re going to have problems, we’re going to have stress, things are going to come up. And so the, this practice that we’re talking about is not trying to block out our life, but instead it’s really quite the opposite. It’s about showing up for life and riding those waves. Yeah. Maybe, um, if I may, would listeners like to take just a moment. Here while we’re listening to the podcast, we’re talking about the breath coming and going. This is a little unusual because you know, dead air on a podcast is unusual, but how about for a few seconds? Let’s give this a try together.
Host: That sounds wonderful.
Guest: Wherever you are, eyes could be open or closed. Take a breath and with a little curiosity, what does it feel like to. What do you notice if, if the invitation comes to drop into what breath feels like, what do you notice? And almost immediately the mind might go off onto something else. It could be judging like, what is this? Or This is unusual, that’s fine. Or, uh, what’s my next meeting? Or how long does this last? It’s all very normal and you’re, you’re having thoughts just like you always would have, but maybe now you notice them in a little different way and then simply come back and take another. And then the mind gets lost, something else comes up and you notice that you’ve been lost. That’s the practice. That’s the little bicep curl, if you will, for the mind. And begin again. Take another breath. So that’s just a few seconds of mindfulness practice. It can be that simple and a couple of things that happen there that maybe are worth pointing out. The invitation was to pay attention to the breath, and in that case, the breath could be considered like an anchor. Maybe I could give a quick analogy that I think is helpful in mindfulness. It may be a little silly, but the mind you could think of is kind of like a monkey. It’s like a monkey mind, and it’s curious. It likes to get into things, right? You can picture a monkey moving around. Yeah. And by the way, there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s something that we love about monkeys. It’s part of what’s, what makes them what they are. There’s nothing wrong with that. However, you can also imagine that could cause some trouble. They jump into an open window and start tearing through your luggage or whatever. Right. That’s like how the mind goes. Before you know it, they’re gone off. It’s gone off and is causing you problems without your knowing. Yeah. Like the monkey. And so rather than say, can you imagine saying, monkey, stop doing that. Just sit down and relax. That’s kind of like the idea of saying, thoughts just stop. I just need to sit down and clear my mind. Many people have probably tried to do that and thought, ah, I can’t. It’s even more aggravating. And so what, what a key move is, is to offer the monkey a job and just a part-time job for a short period of time. Offer the monkey mind a job, and that could be called the objective awareness. So when the invitation is to notice the breath, let the attention be with the breath, it’s not about trying to force the monkey into something, but offer it. Here’s a part-time job paying attention to the breaths, you could also listen to sounds, you could pay attention to the sensations in the body. Uh, and these are some of the basic and often most helpful ways to drop into the present moment. Could we try one more thing?
Host: Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Guest: See if this might resonate for just a minute here. Okay. So a moment ago, we just, uh, dropped. The, the breath. Okay, well, here’s something maybe with a little curiosity, just, um, drop in, maybe you’re sitting or standing. Eyes could be open or closed, whatever, and ask if there’s any emotion present right now. How are you feeling? Happy, sad, anxious, uh, nervous, sleepy. Maybe it’s strong or all right, and then maybe with a little curiosity for just a minute, how do you know? How do I know? Well, if you’re feeling sad, if you’re feeling tired, is there may be a heaviness, warmth, cold? If maybe you said, I’m feeling really anxious. Maybe for just a moment here, allow that to be present and see if you can just notice the, the raw data, if you will, of this scenario, of this situation we’re in. All right. And then maybe a deep breath here. That’s just a real brief practice to invite the mind into what’s really happening, sort of the, the physical sensations, or I like to think of it as the raw data. You know, rather than an analysis of what’s going on. For example, if, if you’re feeling anxious, that might manifest in some way, like a beating heart. And if you sit with that for a minute, might there be a little glimmer that there’s a difference between I feel the heart beating and I feel anxious. How long is it going to last? I’m always an anxious person. I don’t want to be anxious. It isn’t fair and on and on. That’s what the mind is adding. That’s the difference between the what’s really happening versus the suffering that gets laid on by the mind. And that’s where the mindfulness practice slowly, slowly over time can really make a big difference.
Host: Ah, yeah. I really appreciate and enjoyed those experiences you just guided us through, and I think our listeners, will appreciate them as well. Thank you so much, Dan. Really, um, grateful that you joined us for this interview, and shared all this wonderful information with us.
Guest: Thanks very much, Host. Thanks everyone for tuning in and listening. And so again, if you want to get fit, you’ve got to get to the gym and do the reps, so to speak. And so if this topic of mindfulness catches your attention, again, I’ll leave you with the encouragement to give it a try one way or another, whether you, um, check out the show notes for some resources, find an app, find a local practice group or a teacher, someone with experience, or even set a timer for a few minutes and be curious about what it’s like to drop in and notice what’s really happening with the attitude of curiosity and compassion for one’s self. I encourage everyone to give it a try. Thanks a lot for tuning in. It’s really been a pleasure to share this a little bit of time with you. Hope to see you soon.
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