Well Wisconsin Radio

Interviewer: Hello and welcome to Well Wisconsin Radio. A podcast discussing health and wellbeing topics with experts from all around the state of Wisconsin. I’m your host, Katie Lovell, and today my guest is Tom Goeltz. Tom is the President of Safety, Tom Consulting, LLC, and is the former senior Vice President of Risk Management Services with Brown and Brown. He has 40 years of risk management and safety consulting experience and is a certified safety professional. Tom has given hundreds of keynote distracted driving presentations to construction workers, general industry workers, and even high schools. After the death of his daughter, Megan Goeltz to a distracted driver. Tom became a distracted driving victim’s advocate with the National Safety Council, and he was instrumental in helping establish the new Minnesota hands-free law in 2019, and is now working on bills in Wisconsin and other states. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Tom.

Guest: Thanks, Katie. And welcome everyone.

Interviewer: All right, Tom, we are going to go ahead and dive right in. As a safety expert, how would you describe distracted driving to the general public? And then can you give us a few examples of distracted driving?

Guest: Sure. Basically, distracted driving is anything that takes our attention away from our drive. And it could be adjusting the knobs on our console, it could be talking to a passenger, it could be eating. But the main form of distraction that we’re seeing now across the board over the last decade or so is use of phones while driving. It’s something that is very impactful to the country and the world. We see about 46,000 fatalities each year in the United States alone due to driving. And about 80 to 85% of those have some form of distraction associated with it. So, it’s a big number and you’ll see statistics from organizations that are all over the place on how many fatalities are associated with distraction. But I’ve got other professionals in the field and studies that show if we use somebody else’s vehicle or an object like a tree to slow down our vehicle, there’s probably some form of distraction involved in those crashes. So, it’s a big deal, especially with pedestrians and motorcyclists and bicyclists.

Interviewer: Thank you for giving us some examples of that. And those statistics are kind of terrifying. Speaking of a terrifying statistic, there’s one out there that sending or reading a text at 55 miles per hour is like driving the length of a football field with your eyes closed. When you hear that, knowing the personal cost, what goes through your mind?

Guest: Yeah. I use that statement quite often in my presentations. And the one thing that I ask is that if you’re driving 55 miles an hour is one thing, but when we’re traveling down the interstates through Wisconsin, the speed limit is 70 and not everybody goes 70 miles an hour. Some people are going slower, and a lot of people are going over the speed limit. So, if you’re traveling 75 miles an hour, which a lot of people do. You actually travel two football fields with your head down and a lot can happen in those situations where you just lose that space cushion that you’ve got when you’re driving and there could be a turkey on the road, there could be a deer, there could be a stopped vehicle. I mean, how many times do we travel down the interstate and we’re flying down there with no traffic, no weather, no problems, and suddenly, a snow squall hits, and we’ve got whiteout conditions, and we can’t see in front of us. Or there could be an accident or a police officer has pulled over somebody on the road and traffic comes to a complete stop. If you’ve got a distracted driver coming behind you and they’re looking down at their phone and they’re texting, or they’re making a phone call, or they’re searching the internet or making a video, they’re not looking up through the windshield and they can crash into you at full speed. And our vehicles aren’t designed to crash at 50, 60, 70 miles an hour. And when that happens, catastrophic results occur.

Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. Can you tell us more about why you’re so passionate about reducing distracted driving and the work that you do?

Guest: So almost 10 years ago to the day, my daughter Megan, was killed by a distracted driver near Stillwater, Minnesota. It was on February 29th, 2016, leap Day. That day forever changed our family, and it impacted our community. It impacted our church, my employer, my customers. Being a safety consultant and not even being able to save your own daughter in a vehicle crash it’s very difficult for me. And about 10 days after the crash. I went back to work, and I did an OSHA 10-hour training course, and I was training about 20 people on OSHA safety. And the trainers, the people like me, were able to pick topics that applied to the individuals that are taking a class. And the last topic I changed. I don’t even remember what originally I was going to talk about, but I changed it to distracted driving. And I did the presentation, and I used the scenario with Megan in it. And there were men in the audience that were crying. It was so emotional for them because they could put themselves in my place. We all have a mother, a sister, a daughter. And they may not be alive anymore, but we’ve all had them and, you put yourself in my place where you lose a daughter at 22 years old. And, I had one gentleman come up to me afterward after the presentation, he said, I’m not going to remember the other nine OSHA topics that you talked about, but I’m never going to forget the distracted driving one that you talked about. You really need to spread the word and that kind of motivated me. I’ve changed my whole career after that and now all I do is focus on traffic safety and distracted driving specifically. Unfortunately, Megan was pregnant at the time of the crash and so we lost a little, I mean, I lost a baby grandson that should be about nine years old right now. And I should be out ice fishing with him rather than talking about this topic. But I have to talk about it because people are dying on our roads all the time. Over 500 people get killed in Wisconsin every year driving on our roads. And if I can do anything, if I can save a few of those lives, we’ll never know who they are, because that’s how it is with safety, we never know who we save. But, if we can start to reduce some of these things, then I feel like I’ve made a little bit of a difference.

Interviewer: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that personal adventure with us and being very vulnerable and open with us. Can you tell us more about the hands-free law that you helped establish in Minnesota in 2019?

Guest: Sure. Shortly after Megan was killed, I was contacted by the National Safety Council and by families in Minnesota asking us to participate in trying to get that law passed. I think I started in about 2017 and I was involved with it for a couple years. In 2019 that bill passed into the law in Minnesota, but prior to that it, it had been on the books as a bill for about total of 10 years. So, it took 10 years to get that bill passed. I mean, it’s just incredible. And people that you talk to, people listening, I mean, they think, okay, I mean this should be a no-brainer. Right? But hands-free is great. We see about, the states that have enacted hands-free laws, there is about 35 states. Wisconsin isn’t one of them unfortunately. We still don’t have a hands-free law here. Well, technically we do. We have a hands-free law that’s associated with construction zones. Which is fantastic for the construction crews. But it’s not very realistic because people don’t change the way they’re operating the phone because they go through a construction zone. So, unfortunately that’s not really helping us much. We need a whole state law on that. The problem with hands-free is that the government thinks that once you have a hands-free law, we’re safe. And, it really only reduces crashes associated with distracted driving about 10 to 15%, if that. Because there are three forms of distraction. We’ve got a visual distraction where we take our eyes off the road. A manual distraction, where we take our hands off the steering wheel and grab something else like the phone, for example. And then the cognitive part of the distraction. Hands free laws help with the visual, keeping our eyes on the road better. And the manual, keeping our hands on the wheel a little bit better. But it doesn’t help at all with the cognitive portion of the distraction. And that’s a major part of it. That’s 85 to 90% of all crashes are due to the cognitive part of the distraction. Meaning that your brain is concentrating on two activities. And our brain does not do too well with multitasking. We toggle back and forth between the two tasks, and it slows down our reaction time and we make mistakes and those aren’t two good activities while we’re driving.

Interviewer: Yeah, I would say so. You also mentioned that you have been working on bills in Wisconsin and other states. What bills are you working on and what are you able to disclose to us?

Guest: So, it was right around 2019, when we passed the Minnesota bill. Fortunately, that was passed before COVID because everything ground to a halt during COVID. And unfortunately, when I approached the Wisconsin legislature I got involved with some specific representatives because we’ve got a hands-free bill that’s just sitting in committee right now and nothing was really moving forward during COVID. I talked to some different advocates across the state about trying to resurrect the hands-free bill. But it just doesn’t seem to have much traction in our state, unfortunately, even though all the surrounding states around us have hands free laws. Now, you’re probably thinking, okay, why is he fighting for hands free when it doesn’t really help that much. Well, if I can get a 10% reduction in fatalities on our roads, I’ll take it. I’ll take it any day of the week. So that’s why I advocate for that. I can’t get a senator, or a legislator to write a bill for cell phone free, that it’s prohibited to use our phones in the vehicle except for emergencies like 9 1 1. There are no states that has a total ban on use of cell phones in the vehicle while you’re driving. The legislators are not interested in writing a bill that’s just going to get shot down and frankly, there’s a lot of their constituents who are not going to vote for them because they want to be able to use their phones while they’re driving. We see it all the time, you drive down the road, and it doesn’t matter if I’m in Minnesota or Wisconsin, I live right in Hudson, Wisconsin, right on the border. So, I drive in both states a lot, and Minnesota has a hands-free law. Wisconsin doesn’t. I see just as many people in Minnesota holding the phone up on their steering wheel or watching videos or snapchats or doing all these other things while they’re driving as much as in Wisconsin. So, it doesn’t stop people from breaking the law, unfortunately.

Interviewer: Yeah, that is very unfortunate. It’s crazy what people do in their vehicles too. The amount of things you can see, the distractions you can see.

Guest: Right? I mean, you can be talking to a passenger, I get that question a lot. “What’s the difference between talking to a passenger and talking to a person on the phone?”. And when you talk to a passenger, a lot of times that passenger is another driver if they’re an adult. And they’re looking out the windshield, they see what’s going on in your driving environment. They can stop talking to you or point things out to you that maybe the driver can’t see. They’re looking at the environment from a little bit different perspective, from the passenger seat or the back seat.But when that person’s on the phone with you talking, keeping you cognitively distracted, they have no idea what’s going on in your driving environment. They just keep talking to you. And let’s say there’s a bunch of deer running across the road, or turkeys are flying in the way, or people are on the side of the road. You’re in a metropolitan area and you’re talking to somebody on the phone. You might not even see what’s outside that windshield. You might be that cognitively distracted. It’s called inattention blindness. So, you don’t even see what’s going on out there and you can’t react to it. You hit whatever’s out in front of you at full blast.

Interviewer: Yeah. That’s scary. And now we’ll just take a quick break to hear about some well Wisconsin’s program offerings.

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Interviewer: What are some things that individuals can do today to help limit their distractions while behind the wheel?

Guest: One thing that I really advocate for is to put your phone on Do Not Disturb. When I do my presentations one of the first questions that I ask is how many people in the audience have their phone set up on Do Not Disturb? And it’s usually less than 10% of the audience. Some of the people I’ve never even heard of it. And it’s simple to set up, whatever kind of phone you have. All you have to do is go into whatever search engine that you use, and type in the name of your phone. I have an iPhone 12, so I put iPhone 12 Do Not disturb and basically your search engine will tell you a one or two sentence statement on how to set it up.It’s really simple. For me, I’ve got mine set up automatically. There’s like an out of office message that goes to anybody that tries to contact me. And when you have your phone set up on Do Not Disturb, once you’re moving faster than I think about five miles an hour, the phone automatically kicks out and you don’t get texts, emails, phone calls, anything like that. And that auto office message will go out to everyone saying, hey, Tom’s driving right now, he can’t take your message. He will get back to you when it’s safe for him to respond when he is off the road. And it’s great because I have that set up automatically, so if I start taxing down a runway or if I start running too fast, my phone will go on do not disturb and I won’t get messages coming in. The nice thing about it is that you can set your GPS. GPS works with Do Not Disturb. So, I’ll set up my GPS because I use it a lot and I’ve got a mount in my truck that I use, and I’ll turn the volume up. So, I listen to it like a radio. I look at it like a speedometer. Now those are still distracting activities. They’re not as distracting as holding the phone in your hand and punching in numbers and, okay, I didn’t get to my destination, now where am I? I am going to reset or recalibrate it, or I’m going to make a phone call to do this. I don’t get any pop-ups anymore. I don’t get any pop-up texts or emails. I’m getting pop-ups right now because I don’t have it set up on do not disturb. I’m just sitting here, and I’ve got it silenced so you’re not hearing it. But I’m getting emails and texts all the time, just like everybody. And I mean, I’m just as addicted to the phone as everybody else. I just don’t use it while I’m driving. And I can tell you that I was a very, very distracted driver before Megan was killed. And I quit cold turkey. It’s extremely hard to quit using your phone when you’re driving. Because it’s an addiction. Like any other addiction people have addictions to chocolate or drinking or drugs or smoking cigarettes or chewing tobacco and all that. I’ve been addicted to some of those things. It’s hard to quit. I used to chew chewing tobacco, and I probably quit 30 or 40 times before I actually quit. People tell me that they start, they listen to me present just like you are right now, and they go, you know, I’m not going to use my phone. And then they get in their vehicle and the first thing they do is grab their phone. It’s like, oh, I can’t use my phone. And they go, I can do this. Well, it’s easy to do right away when you hear the message. But then a week from now, a month from now, a year from now, a lot of people get back into it because you’re out driving. And you’re in the country, there’s nobody else around, and you get a text and it’s from your wife or spouse or your kids or your friends, and you go, well, there’s nobody here. Let’s just take a look. And sometimes there is somebody over that rise or around the corner, riding their bike or a stranded motorist on the road. You never know. And a lot of times we find out later that it’s too late. We’ve already killed somebody. And how do you react to that? Everybody has different modes of dealing with that kind of stress.Some people put it out of their mind. Like if it’s an act of God, I can’t do anything, I have no remorse. And other people can’t handle that anymore. Where are you on that spectrum? Can you deal with killing a 22-year-old girl and her unborn baby? I know some of you that would be very, very difficult to go on in life living with something like that. The other thing is my daughter had a little 3-year-old little girl that wasn’t in the car, fortunately at the time of the crash, but she’s had to grow up now without her mama because of some stupid distracted driver. And I tell people, think about that the next time you want to pick up the phone. You got an important message coming in from your wife or your kids or your friends. Is it really that important? Is it more important than your life? I mean, you be the judge.

Interviewer: Yeah. That’s powerful. Thank you for the do not disturb advice for the phone. I didn’t actually know that that was a thing.

Guest: There are apps that are available that you can get on your phone that don’t allow you to use a phone while you’re in motion and stuff like that. You could put your phone on airplane mode. You can turn it off. There are different devices. I hand out bracelets at my presentations and I tell people if you don’t like to wear the bracelet, put it in your vehicle on your shifter and when you get in your vehicle, wrap it around your phone and maybe that’ll remind you about what we talked about. There’s cell slips that are available that block the signal to the phones. There are all kinds of simple things that you can do that don’t cost any money and then you have peace of mind. And I can tell you that driving without distractions when you’re not as distracted as when you’re using your phone is a lot more enjoyable. It’s a lot more relaxing when you’re not trying to multitask while you’re driving. You have to pay attention when you’re driving because there’s so many people that are not paying attention. When I was using my phone before Megan died, I didn’t really notice this as a problem, I’ll be honest. And I didn’t notice distracted driving because I was part of the problem. Right. When I stopped using my phone, that gave me the opportunity to look at my environment. I’m looking at my mirrors more, I’m looking at my rear-view mirror more. I’m looking out the window, seeing cars passing me, pa you know, or I’m passing other vehicles. It was astounding to me how many people are not paying attention when they’re driving. I mean, it’s a lot of vehicles out there that aren’t. And so, when they start coming at you and they will come at you, we’ve all had it happen. When they come at you, you’re going to have to take evasive action. And when you’re distracted, you’re not quick on the draw, you’re not taking real good evasive action when they come at you. And two distracted drivers are a problem.

Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. What advice would you give to parents who are about to hand car keys over to their teenager, especially as you had mentioned, with the increase of the use of cell phones?

Guest: Well, I do a lot of presentations at schools, high schools, and middle schools. There are other distracted driving victims’ advocates like me that speak to grade school kids. And, I haven’t done that, but I do talk to children about distraction because when a child is in the vehicle and they’re in their car seat in the backseat and they see mom or dad on their phone, you know how honest our kids are, they’ll rat you out as a parent. Say, hey dad, I don’t think you’re supposed to be on your phone. That’s dangerous. And, and what are you going to say as a parent? That kid is correct. These kids come up to me and they go, well, I’m not going to use my phone when I’m driving. I’m old enough I didn’t have a cell phone. Cell phones weren’t even in existence when I was a kid. When I was a teenager, learning how to drive. Now I remember being a teenager, getting my license. I wasn’t a very good driver back then because I didn’t have that much experience. We gain experience as an adult driver; you have more intuition about what’s happening around you. You can plan. Where kids they’re more interested in listening to their song list or the radio, talking to their friends. I can’t imagine being a 19, 18, 17-year-old driving down the road and suddenly, I get a text from my girlfriend. I promised my mom and dad that I’m not going to use my phone when I drive, but I’m out in the middle of nowhere now, and I’m driving down the road. Dad isn’t here and I get a text from her. The most important girl in my life right now, right? It would be difficult not to look at that while I’m driving. So, with parents, there’s apps available where you can track the phone use on your kids. You can have it shut off while they’re driving. You can make sure that they have do not disturb on their phone. The people that I text with in my family, if I go into their texts, I can see where they’re at where they’re driving down the road. They’ve gave me permission to see that so I can see if they’re driving, and I don’t call them. When they’re driving, I don’t text them or email them when they’re driving or social media message them because I know that they might think, hey, something coming in from dad, he knows I’m driving. Hmm, it must be important. So, they may take that message or call. Even when you’re sitting in your house and you’re texting people. If you know that they’re driving, get off the phone, don’t message them. I still have friends that call me while they’re driving down the road and a lot of times we can tell when they’re driving, right. And so I’ll ask them, I said, are you driving right now? And they’ll go, well, yeah, but I’m on hands free, I’m on Bluetooth, I’m on speaker phone, this is safe. I said, you know, that’s not safe. Just because the government says it’s safe. It doesn’t mean it’s safe. Do we believe everything the government tells us? We don’t have to go down that road and you don’t have to answer that question But, I say it doesn’t matter if you’re a friend of mine or a relative of mine or whatever, if you’re driving down the road and you call me, I’m going to hang up on you. I’m going to say, call me when it’s safe, when you’re safely off the road and you have time to talk, goodbye. And that’s what we need to start doing. Distracted driving is becoming such a big thing. If we need to make distracted driving socially unacceptable, just like drunk driving is, we know how bad drunk driving is in Wisconsin. I mean, people talk about it all the time and people don’t go around bragging that, hey, I got really drunk last night and I drove all over the place. I drove home. If we find out, it’s like you drove home. What’s wrong with you? I mean, you could have been killed. Why didn’t you call me? We don’t do that in a distracted driving scenario. If somebody’s on their phone and they’re walking out to their car and I’m in the parking lot with them, I’ll say, hey, get off your phone before you drive. How many people do that? We don’t do that. We don’t do that. That’s where we need to go because the distracted driving is becoming our new drunk driving. 20 years ago, you saw a car weaving down the road that was a drunk driver probably all day long. And now you see cars weaving all the time and 99 times out of a hundred, it’s not a drunk driver anymore. It’s a distracted driver. And it’s interesting, the studies that show they set up cones in a parking lot and they have you drink until you’re legally drunk. And you hit a certain amount of cones and you steer off the course a certain amount. When you’re talking hands free on a phone with Bluetooth, you actually hit more cones and you go off the road more than being legally drunk. Why don’t we champion that and get that message out there? It just floors me that we just can’t get this under control better. It’s getting worse. It’s just getting worse and worse and worse all the time.

Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, I am on the road a lot and I see all these distracted drivers and it just, it scares me knowing that I unfortunately have been one of them. But, you see it. All the time. Like you had mentioned, the swerving, you’d never know if it’s going to be a drunk driver, a distracted driver now.

Guest: Yep. Yep. It’s everywhere. They’re everywhere. We have to be on our game. And, the thing about distracted driving is when you’re anticipating a text, let’s say if I text my wife and then I start driving, I drive to Fleet Farm, or I’m going someplace, I’m driving to Milwaukee from Hudson, which is over a four hour drive, and all of a sudden I get a message and I haven’t turned my phone off. Now my phone automatically goes off. Most people’s don’t. So, you hear it, you feel it buzz, and then it’s like, oh, it’s from my wife. I asked her a question, she’s responding. I got to see what that is. What that does, just anticipating getting that text or email or phone call releases dopamine in our brain. When dopamine gets released, it’s a pleasurable experience. It’s a euphoria. It makes us feel good. And a quick example that, that you guys might understand is that Megan was killed in late February, February 29th, so late February every year. Is the anniversary of her death. And, last year, on February 28th, I was sitting in my living room, and I was watching a hockey game. And I went on my Facebook page. I was looking at Facebook and my memories popped up, so there were pictures of my daughter and me, and so I clicked on a couple of them, and I shared them back on my Facebook page. And I put the phone on my knee, it was on vibrate, and I was watching that hockey game. I didn’t watch any of the hockey game because about every five, 10 seconds I’d get a vibration and it would be an old buddy of mine from high school or somebody, a friend, a coworker, a neighbor, somebody from church. All messaging me, Hey Tom, we’re thinking about you. We know this is a bad time of the year. We’re praying for you. Thank you for your advocacy. I couldn’t wait to see their messages. It was releasing that dopamine in my brain, and it was making me feel a little better on a late February day when I was feeling pretty lousy and you can’t stop it. It’s inside. That’s why I say it’s an addiction, like any of the other types of addictions that I’ve already mentioned.

Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. Thank you for those analogies. I think that might help me and our listeners understand that a little bit better. If you could sit down with anyone currently being distracted while driving, what is the one thing you want them to understand about the life-changing ripple effects of that moment?

Guest: When you lose a loved one due to any reason, it could be cancer, it could be gun violence, it could be suicide, it could be distracted driving, drunk driving, whatever it may be that feeling never really goes away completely. The way it was described to me when this first happened was that it’s like waves in an ocean. You might run into really big waves at first because they just keep hitting you and then you feel a little better. There were times when this first happened to Megan and her unborn baby that I couldn’t really handle it. My wife used to tell me that for the first 30 years of our lives together she never saw me cry, because I wasn’t a very emotional guy. And I think for about the first five or six years after Megan died, I cried every single day. Most of the time it was when I was by myself and I was looking at a beautiful sunset, or a beautiful sunrise, or listening to a song that reminded me of Megan. You don’t want to go through this. You could certainly be a victim like we are, but you could cause this to somebody else’s family. And I know people that that’s happened to and some of them have become distracted driving victim’s advocates like me. They caused a crash that seriously hurt themselves or other people. And now they’re advocating for this. Most people that I know that get involved in a crash like this, either their family member or themselves, they can’t get up and speak about it. So, I’m trying to speak for all those that can’t get up and speak. I was a safety consultant. I do these kinds of things. I did them for 30 years before the crash and I’ve learned to be able to get through it. But you don’t want this to happen. We could spend hours talking about our legal system and how disappointing that is in regards to some of these crashes that occur and kill our loved ones. You don’t want to get involved with that if you can’t, and if you can try to avoid it at any cost, I would say do it. Do it. You know, we need to make good decisions. We need to make the right decision when we’re driving. We make a decision if we’re going to drink and drive. Are we going to get a designated driver? Are we going to have one beer when we go off for a fish fry on Friday night? Or are we going to keep drinking? If we keep drinking, we’re going to get a designated driver, take an Uber home or whatever. Are you making your right good decisions with your kids in the backseat? They see mom and dad using their phone while they’re driving. Those are the kind of things that bother me the most when I see mom and dad and then the kids in the car seats in the backseat. The kids see you. They see what you’re doing when you’re driving. And guess what? They’re going to do the exact same thing when they get to be drivers. My mom and dad always did it all the time. Some of them are going to go, I know that’s bad, I’m not going to do it. But the other ones are going to go, well, they did it. Nothing bad happened to them. But you never know when it might.

Interviewer: Yeah. Thank you for your powerful message. I appreciate your vulnerability and just your message that you gave to us today.

Guest: Yeah. Thank you for having me. And I appreciate Katie, you, the interview and, everyone that’s attended. Please spread the word. Talk to your family and friends about what you’ve heard. I’ve got a website that goes into more detail on what happened to Megan and the training and the presentations I provide. It’s safetytom.com. It’s easy to remember. And, you can find out how to get in touch with me if you want me to come to your school or your company and do a presentation. I do them at businesses, contractors, churches, rotary clubs, schools, anywhere. Anybody that’ll listen. If we can change a few people’s behavior while driving, we’re better off in this state for sure.

Interviewer: Thank you so much for your time today, Tom. We really appreciate it.Thanks for listening to Well Wisconsin Radio. I hope you enjoyed the show. We love hearing from our community. So please take a moment to visit the Well Wisconsin Radio card under the benefits tab in your Well Wisconsin portal to share your feedback or suggest a guest for a future episode. You can find our transcripts and previous episodes all at www.webmdhealthservices.com/wellwisconsinradio. If you’re listening to this podcast on your platform of choice. Be sure to subscribe so you can never miss an episode.

In this month’s episode, we sit down with Tom Goeltz, Distracted Driving Victim’s Advocate, and president of SafetyTom Consulting LLC. We discuss what distracted driving is, the impact distracted driving can have, what individuals can do to limit distracted driving, and review statistics for the state of Wisconsin. We also dive into the ways we can role model safe, attentive driving for the future drivers in our lives.

Resource referenced during interview:

safetytom.com

Talk to a health coach individually or sign up for group coaching today by calling 800-821-6591.

 

The information in this podcast does not provide medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It should not be used as a substitution for healthcare from a licensed healthcare professional. Consult with your healthcare provider for individualized treatment or before beginning any new program.