Gemma Wenstrom from Kaia Health | Reducing MSK Costs with Digital, Human-Centered Care

Christine: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the HR Scoop. I’m Christine Muldoon, your host, and I’m so glad you’re joining me for another great conversation focused on all things wellbeing. Today’s wellbeing topic focuses on musculoskeletal conditions, one of the most costly health concerns for large employers.

MSK covers everything from back and joint pain to arthritis and injuries, all of which have a significant impact on both employees and their organizations. Joining us is Kaia Health, a company dedicated to supporting people living with MSK conditions and chronic pain. Today we’ll explore the key factors driving these costs.

What organizations can do to better manage them, and how digital solutions are opening new doors to care and improve outcomes. [00:01:00] My guest today is Gemma Wenstrom from Kaia Health. Gemma is a leader in patient experience digital health and healthcare innovation. She is currently serving as the chief operating officer at Kaia Health.

At Kaia, she has been instrumental in transforming the way patients and care teams engage with MSK Health and chronic pain management. Gemma leads the company’s efforts to establish digital multimodal therapies as assessable, affordable, and impactful interventions for patients worldwide. Gemma, welcome to the HR Scoop.

Gemma: Thank you very much, Christina. I’m happy to be here.

Christine: So excited to have you and what a topic we’re gonna talk about today. We’re diving into MSK and pain management, and as I said, it’s a health topic that represents not only a significant but [00:02:00] growing financial burden for both employers as well as the healthcare system.

And there’s a lot of challenges that we’re gonna unpack with that. But before we get into all the details. Can you share with our listeners the mission of Kaia Health and what brought you there?

Gemma: Sure. Yeah. So Kaia’s mission, um, is simple, uh, but ambitious and its mission is that everyone gets access to high quality, uh, pain or joint management, um, at low cost.

And that is, you know, learning and customized to their own experience. That is something that we believe we can achieve with a digital solution. Um, um, but the ambition is, of course, uh, capturing the, the hearts and minds of people who are looking for solutions and finding our place in the healthcare continuum so that we can be a meaningful part of an overall healthcare journey.[00:03:00]

Christine: And. Probably also I would say like integrating within that wellbeing experience and Kaia Health is one of WebMD health services partners, and we certainly see that value. It’s about raising awareness on different options that are available to individuals. Now I, go ahead. Yeah, I

Gemma: was gonna say, that’s kind of what drew me to Kaia because, so throughout my career I’ve worked in, in healthcare in a range of ways.

Um, but always, uh, with an orientation of patient empowerment. And, uh, the interesting thing about Kaia’s approach is that it is very much kind of grassroots and, and, and to a broad, a broad population. At first, we’re demystifying we’re reducing barriers to access. And so I think that’s a very powerful way to.

Start what I think is a, a larger revolution across healthcare, um, which is to, to give patients [00:04:00] a sense of empowerment in their own care. Uh, and particularly when it comes to pain. I’d say that’s probably, it’s not only very, uh, unique to each. Individual’s experience, but it’s also something that feels, can feel overwhelming at different times and sometimes be totally, um, suppressed in your day-to-day experience.

And both of those things, both overwhelmed or being able to ignore it, are, are, are bad habits for, for, for individuals. And so Kaia really works to, um, help people understand it, uh, and, and build kind of a, a habit around, um, taking care of themselves.

Christine: Perfect. So. I’m excited to talk about this, but I wanna kind of address the problem that maybe companies are facing.

So, you know, I mentioned this at the beginning that me, MSK, pain management is often a, a top cost driver. Among chronic [00:05:00] conditions for organizations. And so kind of thinking about that, what factors actually make MSK more costly than some other chronic conditions? Because you might not expect that as, as a person.

Gemma: Yeah. I think, you know, your average individual you’d encounter probably. Um, has a story about having, uh, joint pain, uh, pretty much everyone you meet. And so, but I think that on an individual level, it’s hard to truly grasp. Um, the downstream effects of, of what may be in your mind is a moment of pain or a setback in, in your marathon training or that kind of thing.

And so I think that what happens is MSK is so deeply intertwined into all of the other conditions that, uh, and it and, and pain. Um, as a symptom is, uh, a very straightforward way to understand a need when you’re in the healthcare system. So I think it creates, it’s, it’s such an expensive, [00:06:00] um, area because it’s usually coupled with other conditions, uh, and, and maybe often the most neglected because it’s, it’s non-specific, it’s cyclical, uh, and, and there isn’t really like a direct prescription medication or solution for it.

Um, and then the other reason why I think the costs escalate so much is that even if it is your singular focus, people get very good at adapting to a level of pain that, uh, they get used to. And I think that it’s an easy thing to set aside, um, and, and push through, especially since it can flare up and down.

That often what happens is it goes too long and by the time you face a reality that you need. Some healthcare for it, it’s probably gotten worse than it would’ve been if you had treated it as maybe a more urgent need in, in like you would’ve in some, with some other conditions. So I think that’s really the challenge.

[00:07:00] It’s, it’s, um, it’s not only clear and present in a moment, but because it’s clear and present in a moment, um, and is so often paired with other conditions, it doesn’t have its own central. Home in place. And so it often gets, uh, gets lost and becomes over escalated, uh, when, when people need something.

Christine: Yeah.

Probably just like other conditions. There’s so many factors as you’re saying. It’s like, all right, well, what’s causing the pain? Do you have other co comorbidities that might be complicating the pain? And then we all have a different threshold of pain. So how severe is that pain? Right.

Gemma: Right. It’s so subjective and, and people are hesitant to to, you know, I think people are also hesitant to complain about pain.

Um, unfortunately, I think that they think that if they can manage through, if it’s not so bad, uh, it’s the last thing to take care of.

Christine: Yes. And then it’s, you know, well, maybe [00:08:00] it’ll go away, so I’ll just wait a little bit longer and, you know, just take my Tylenol or whatever. Um, I heard this thing about, so we probably all have talked about or heard about the 80 20 kind of concept and this disproportionate spending.

So with MSK, is there also like that small subset of patients. Whose MSK conditions or pain the, you know, drive the majority of the costs because of all the factors we’ve just talked about?

Gemma: Yeah, I think so. And so often, I mean, the headlines about MSK are true, but on an individual population level, it probably is just a handful of individuals that are driving the bulk of the cost.

And in some ways, you know, when it comes to something like Kaia that may make you think, well, how do we address the very, very needy, um, the people that need intensive surgery, intensive rehab. But the secret still is, is, [00:09:00] is driving, you know, proactive health amongst the 80%. And that’s something that, um, a solution like Kaia can do very well because it’s, um, not expensive and it can kind of meet you where you are.

You don’t need to meet a threshold of need. You just need to be curious about managing some pain or just managing physical function. And so I think today. The system react is reactive to to, um, uh, to MSK issues, and that of course drives costs and, um, results in poorer outcomes. Um, uh, but overall the bigger picture, the people that you can keep in that 80% I think are, is arguably, um, worthwhile, uh, a, a population to focus on because, um, everyone cycles into that 20% at some point.

Christine: So, um, our listeners are, you know, likely. HR professionals [00:10:00] and they’re sitting here saying, yeah, MSK, that’s one of our, our top drivers. So, you know, how does Kaia Health talk about strategies or what guidance do they, do they give to employers who are also, you know, challenged with this, this cost driver for their organization?

Gemma: Well, I think, I mean, I think about it from my organization as well as part of my function. And, uh, I’m lucky I have a whole internal team building out a Kaia product that can also, you know, turn that out, experiment and innovate with our actual employee base. And I think, I know that at the forefront is often that cost number.

Um, and, and thinking about how to balance the cost for, for benefits for driving wellbeing into your employee base. Um, with, uh, the downstream, um, you know, at the basic level, Goodwill will, and then obviously real clinical outcomes. And so, I mean, Kaia is not just another [00:11:00] exercise app. Uh, it, we deliver clinical grade care through, uh, a range of technology, including our, um, I’m sure we’ll talk about it later, our motion.

Our motion tracking technology that actually learns and adapts to each user’s needs. And so it’s not just a single moment of care, like in the real world, maybe go for, um, a, a bad shoulder, uh, uh, it’s actually, it actually evolves and adapts. It can. Treat your immediate need and it can make you more aware of other issues.

I’d say one of our most popular features, at least with my employee base, is, um, leveraging the, uh, ergonomic resources within the app, um, because that’s so critical in, in the workspace and I think that really, it really resonates with, with employees to put the. What something like Kaia can do in the context that they’re in, which is work.

And so I think, [00:12:00] you know, comfort at their desk. Taking pauses to move a little, uh, these seem like small things, but if they become a habit, if they’re consistent, um, they can really transform someone’s physical health. And I think, uh, all of us know that that really, uh, underpins mental health as well.

Christine: As you’re saying ergonomics.

I’m adjusting myself in my, my chair, trying to sit up. Um, I did invest in a standing desk, you know, ’cause sometimes we just sit all day and that’s so bad for us, but, okay. I get it. So, I kind of wanna jump ahead because you did talk about this motion coach, and I think this is important ’cause I, I had an opportunity, um, to leverage the Kaia Health app when I was, uh.

Going through some back issues and really was not able to get into physical therapy. So you all were so kind to say, here, try the app. And it helped me kind of focus on my physical [00:13:00] therapy and exercises that were gonna support me and it’s a digital app and so, you know, some people are probably sitting there going, there is no way a digital app is going to be specific for me.

My. SK pain or issues that I’m having. And so can you sort of share a little bit about what is unique about Kaia Health Solution for MSK pain management? And I think you started to talk a little bit about this motion coach, which I think is really interesting in an aspect I really thought was valuable in using the app.

Gemma: Yeah, I mean I think so the thing that, um. Is subversive about Kaia health, uh, is to use kind of maybe a strong word is, is that, you know, it imagines a world where if equipped with the right information and the right guidance, a lot of people can take control over, um, issue over MSK [00:14:00] joint and pain issues.

Um, and I can’t stress enough how critical, you know, real world physical therapists are. Physical therapy is, I mean, the, the foundation, the core of it is physical touch. It’s important, um, uh, on the one hand, uh, and, and it is important. It’s critical and, and, um, people should see an in-person physical therapists for many reasons.

Um, but there aren’t enough physical therapists in the world. Uh, the pressures in their own, um, environments of physical therapists to. Um, you know, to run their businesses can compromise how much, uh, human interaction you can get even in the real world. And the reality is, is that not everyone needs that level of care.

It’s, again, backs to that 80 20 thing. Sometimes you may, um, but for the most part, what you need is to understand your body, understand the mechanisms of pain, um, understand [00:15:00] how you operate best, you know, ways that you can sneak in. Um. Uh, habits and routine that help you stay at a top of, of your physical, of your physical health.

And so Kaia has a few, I think, innovative, um, elements that support this. The, I think our, our most well-known one and our, our clinical, clinical grade one is that motion, uh, coach is what we call it. And, and it’s, it’s Kaia is available via any sort of tablet. Smart. Tablet, device, phone, um, and it uses, um, a rigorously tested, developed by, uh, physical therapists and clinicians vision, uh, to observe your movements.

Uh, in the Kaia app, it can be as simple as just keeping track of things for you, but you know, more profoundly, it actually assesses your whole body’s movement and can give you feedback. Uh, and, and it recommend adjustments to that movement. And, uh, I’m not sure how many people have [00:16:00] experienced with physical therapy, but really the movements are incredibly micro.

You know, it’s, it’s a tiny, you know, release of your shoulder. Or slight angle adjustment or, you know, pelvic tilt, uh, or um, knee to ankle adjustment. And so these little adjustments, even before you mo make a movement, can actually alleviate pain, uh, just by having the right alignment. And so, um, you know, Kaia’s, uh.

Vision capability has 57 different points on the body. It was designed for the express purpose of understanding rehabilitative movement. Um, and it, uh, you know, it’s, it’s safe. It’s been studied for safety ’cause obviously we’re, a computer is giving you feedback. You wanna make sure that it’s vetted. Um, and it has.

It’s, it’s, um, it’s a safe, uh, application. Uh, it’s been observed in a real world study against physical therapists observing a [00:17:00] patient and giving feedback. And it is at least as accurate, if not more. Um, and, um, and so that’s kind of the, the key, you know, um, heart of our technology. But the other piece is also, will you do this?

Will you stick to it? Um. Will you abandon it if the pain subsides and not learn how to stay ahead of that pain flare up. Uh, and so the other aspect of Kaia that I think is strong, and it’s sort of, it’s a piece of, its its digital nature, is that there’s, it’s a, there’s an engagement engine. We get to understand you.

We learn about your behaviors. We try to figure out a way to insert seven minutes of this into your day or week that is sustainable and that helps you build a, a habit that keeps you healthy. And then of course there is a coaching level. So the WebMD, um, coaches. Are integrated with the app and can be used as a resource to perhaps hold you more accountable, um, to sticking to your [00:18:00] routine or to answering questions or to helping you navigate, um, to more resources in the application.

So, so that’s kind of the, the three pieces of, of the, the software program that, that I think, um, uh, makes us stand out, um, because we are trying to. Uh, make sure that it’s the patient or the user herself that feels empowered to take care of herself. But there are, uh, technological and human resources, uh, to help support, uh, or pull you through maybe more difficult, challenging phases of your, of your, uh, joint and pain management cycles.

Christine: I think that’s important because there is some human el, it’s not all digital. There are these human elements. Um, and having a coach or I know when I was using it, I would, you know, get a message. How’s things, how are things going? And I could, or I could ask question like. I’m really bothered today by this pain or this [00:19:00] location, and there’s like immediate feedback and recommendations on changes or tweaks that maybe you should make based on, you know, that that feedback or what I’m experiencing.

And I think also really that, um, accessibility or, or access, it’s simple. So, you know, trying to get to a physical therapist was not easy for me at that moment in time. But being able to walk away from my desk and focus on some of those exercises and, and still have that support element makes it easier to incorporate it in your overall wellbeing.

And I think that’s what ultimately will jive longer term. Of course wanting to and starting to feel better also. Like, this is working, I’m gonna keep doing it.

Gemma: Yeah. Yeah. That’s the key. And we, you know, um, our users in general start reporting meaningful improvement around the four to six week mark. [00:20:00] Um, but there is, you know, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of technology hype in healthcare.

Uh, I’m a strong believer in how. Powerful technology can be for healthcare administration operations. I think the harder thing to convince people is the role technology can have in, in that human care. And, and like I said, there’s a place for, for human care, but I think arguably, especially with, you know, lifestyle or, or, or, you know, health needs that really are about personal responsibility eventually about understanding yourself well.

About, um, you know, nothing too ambitious, just about. Building kind of some self-care routines that include some physical therapy into your day. A digital app can actually be really powerful because one, you’re not showing up to be graded on your progress before you complete your sessions. Your, your 10th session, whatever it is, you’re, you can actually say [00:21:00] you’re more comfortable kind of acknowledging, you know, you know, this is my seventh week in, but I’m not, I’m feeling.

Not great. And the program can adjust. You can, you can pull back on the physical exercises. You can make them easier. You can just do breathing that day. You know, Zaya has three parts. It has obviously the physical exercises, it has education materials, um, that I think are powerful in helping to understand, you know, why you need something like this, or why you feel pain or, or, um, you know, why you maybe feel pain and aren’t getting any.

Concrete feedback from the real healthcare world, you know, because your X-ray’s fine, your MRI’s fine. You know, things like that. I think it helps to, to, um, understand that mental side of pain. And then, you know, finally there’s, there’s relaxation resources and, and the app also has other kind of vectors of, of pathways like yoga, like a balance focus, you know, because it tries to keep people.

To, to serve up something that [00:22:00] at least keeps people moving or thinking about, uh, their range of motion in their body more often. So in a way, there’s, there’s, there’s a place for, for technology and I think in this particular space, you know, chronic, recurring, um, uh, deeply personal and subjective conditions like Ms.

K Pain, um, it’s, it’s a, uh, the, an app I think outperforms. Um, many people’s expectations, uh, because of its ability to be, to be customized and to feel personal and, and, um, uh, to kind of remove the pressure of progressing well under healthcare, uh, intervention.

Christine: So as I think about, um, organizations and almost cost is a huge factor for.

The business case for something like Kaia Health. But I think there are also, and [00:23:00] interested from your perspective, there are other challenges or hurdles for people that are suffering with MSK conditions, whether it’s back or joint pain or you know, acute, chronic, there are challenges that they face related to getting care.

And, and Kaia Health could be that, um, solution to supporting them. Are, do you, like, are there specific challenges or some of the top challenges that you think people are facing and why they can’t to get the care that they need?

Gemma: Yeah, I think there’s, there’s a lot there. Know, there’s a lot of things that that make, even if care is available, even if you’re in a big city and there’s lots of resources, um.

But I will say, obviously, you know, the farther out the, the more challenging it is to even get an appointment. Uh, I think there’s, there’s just so many complex things that go into [00:24:00] getting care in, in the healthcare system today, uh, especially when it’s about, you know, nobody, nobody minds going in for. Uh, an open wound that needs stitching.

I mean, something that’s so objective and so straightforward, you know, that people understand that exchange, but something that, that’s more complex, uh, like, like joint pain. I think there’s, um, you know, we see a lot of people who are uncomfortable, um, maybe with their. Uh, size or shape or with just movement in general and having kind of the lower pressure, privacy of self-directed physical therapy.

I’d say that’s probably the second most surprising thing I hear, uh, from our, our users. Um, or the ones who are just like, I just didn’t want, I didn’t, I couldn’t, I couldn’t get comfortable in a real world environment. Working on what I thought were [00:25:00] stupidly small movements, you know, kind of pathetic little up and down squats, like things that I thought I should have mastered so far, um, uh, beyond this.

And I, so I felt uncomfortable. So that’s probably the, a surprising one, um, where it’s just you just feel like you have a little bit of privacy and space to be a beginner, to be uncomfortable with movement and to slowly chip away at that. I mean, Kaia’s, you know, big. Idea is that, you know, just get started.

Just do something. And a, you know, it’s, it’s, and the, the more something is overwhelming, the smaller you really have to do to make an impact. I mean, um, um, a very, a successful marathoner, you know, is, is not gonna be intimidated by seven minutes of physical therapy in Kaia, but to somebody that feels overwhelmed by even getting to a, a doctor’s office to get some support.

Even a few minutes is gonna make a much bigger difference than it would to somebody who is [00:26:00] confident in that arena. Um, the other thing is, there’s just so many, you know, I, um, uh, I am a mother of teenagers and I don’t, I have time. I know I do somewhere. I, I mean, I even get more sleep now. But you just, it’s just not, you know, building that in.

We’re already supposed to be going to the gym and supposed to be. Going for walks and supposed to be watching our, you know, kids’, uh, violin performance or, or soccer games. And so I think, you know, there’s, it’s such an easy thing to put off because one day you can wake up and it’s not so bad, and so you just kinda let it go.

And so it’s very hard, you know, it’s, like I said, like the gash that you’re getting stitches in. Sometimes it doesn’t stay clear and present and urgent, and we’re very good as humans at letting that drop then. And that’s of course the, the worst thing you can do because if you instead stayed vigilant in a small way about that need, you’d, you’d certainly [00:27:00] prevent downstream, you know, higher cost demand.

So I would say it’s the, um, for two, the two, one, not surprising, one surprising. The surprising one was just that, that people wanted a little bit of lower pressure. Um, but highly trustworthy feedback about their movement, um, in order to kind of take small steps to regaining strength and confidence. And then a classic one that’d say most of us understand is it’s so easy to just cancel the PT appointment.

Uh, or, or put it off or think, you know what, actually I seem fine. I’ve been on Advil for a week and it’s not so bad. And then two months later when it comes back, you sort of forget that you. Had the same thing and it cycled through again. And so it’s just, and then of course each time it’s, it’s a little bit worse or it starts to affect the rest of your body and suddenly, you know, a misalignment with your hip is, is causing you problems with your knee.

So I think that that, that those two are probably really common, [00:28:00] uh, uh, reasons to, um, uh, that people avoid, uh, staying proactive in care and, and, and instead become, start to slip into that 20% that have higher needs.

Christine: You know, again, adding my own perspective, um, you know, going to physical therapy, there’s a point where you sort of max out whatever your benefits look like, and then yes, that’s true.

Personal cost becomes, uh, a prohibitor from that as well. And I was thinking about the scenarios. I mean, everything that you’ve said, I think, you know, listeners can relate to whether it’s like, I just couldn’t get an appointment. I don’t really feel like I have the time. Um, the uncomfortableness for sure.

I mean, it’s that. I mean, heck, I was at physical therapy and then I got like a hot flash and I was so embarrassed, like being there. Like, I swear I’m not like sweating from this little stretch. Yes, yes. This isn’t

Gemma: hard. Yes. Yeah.

Christine: But there’s also that. That, uh, [00:29:00] maybe as like a alternative treatment option, right?

Like you’ve been told, sorry, you need to have surgery and now personally, maybe you wanna try a different alternative and, and Kaia maybe could be that too, and kind of seeing how that supports you, maybe in the short term. I, I don’t know.

Gemma: Oh yeah. Well actually it’s interesting that you say that. ’cause I was saying that the fee, the kind of discomfort with, you know, movement in front of somebody that’s trying to kind of see if he passed the grade was the second most common and most surprising to me.

But the first most common, you know, very proactive, exuberant feedback we get is these people who have been told that they need surgery. And it seems surprising that you’re told that you need surgery and you’re like, maybe I’ll go to an app. But I think that, um, you know, it, the surgery ward is kind of sobering.

It’s suddenly, you know, you wanna solve the pain issue and so you’re going through the [00:30:00] process and you’re, you’re go, you know, it’s not working. You’re getting escalated, you get to the surgeon. In the end, I think people don’t quite, aren’t quite prepared for the, the new set of issues that arise, which is not only more, um, you know, missing more work, uh, kind of going under a knife, uh, taking more risks to.

To, to get treated, um, the guaranteed limitations you’ll have post-surgery. I mean, it, it, it’s not like you fix and you go in post-surgery, you’re probably at your worst. I think it suddenly, you know, gets people to be like, well, what can I, is there anything I can do? And we have lots of stories of people that I would’ve considered, you know, if they’re already talking to a surgeon, you know, well beyond probably a typical audience for Kaia.

Um. Come and tell us their stories. And we have one of our, our longest term, we have a, a user who’s used us for something at this point, like 2,800 consecutive days. And he [00:31:00] needed, um, a knee surgery. Doesn’t anymore skis like a maniac, a just, uh, this week, um, one of our main feedbacks was about somebody who had, uh, a wrist issue that needed surgery, never felt better.

She’d been doing it for three months. She’s not getting surgery. Uh, she’s doing things that she didn’t do before, like play tennis. And so I think, you know, surgery is not, um, standing there as the best solution. I mean, even surgeons will, will say that I think it’s anywhere between 30, uh, and 50% have great outcomes in surgery and the rest don’t.

And you’ve sometimes handicapped yourself even more severely in your journey to build. Understanding about your body, confidence in physical movement, you know, because you’re starting from being, you know, a post-surgical person, uh, which is, is, is probably a lot weaker than just a, a misaligned person or, uh, a worn down, you know, joint person.

And so I [00:32:00] think that, um, uh, uh, we see a lot of of users and we hear from them most probably because they’re so surprised themselves that all it took was just a little bit of. Regular attention, and I’m suddenly farther away from surgery than I’ve ever been. Um, despite having years of in and out, you know, PT work and adjustments and, and, and lots of efforts to chase the pain away.

Turns out it was just, um, uh, kind of a, a daily habit that I could build and then build strength. So I think that’s, that’s I think, um, uh, uh, a strong, um. A section of our population is those who, who finally got serious about avoiding surgery and had much more motivation to build a personal habit and stick to it.

Christine: I think that’s key. What you just said is like having that motivation and sticking, sticking to it. A couple points come to my mind is that. One, it, [00:33:00] it’s not an immediate thing. Um, I’ve learned that, you know, MSK, pain management, it takes time, but you have to kind of work through it, make it a daily habit.

You know, and there’ll be ups and downs, right? And there’ll be days where you’re like, I just can’t do this. And as you said, that’s fine. You know, let’s do maybe a little bit of a yoga move or you know, something that will support where you’re sitting right now. Maybe not from the physical, but from the mental standpoint.

And you know, you need that extra driver push. And it also makes me think about how important. The physical aspects, um, need to be part of all other, like the whole person you are focusing on, and not just the pain in the knee, but how that impacts other things that you do in life, how that makes you feel.

Um, and so it’s so important to, I think, really look at the whole person [00:34:00] and. MSKP management really should be part of a broader wellbeing strategy. Just having it standalone, um, you’re only fixing one piece, you know, of that person. So for people that are listening, they’re like, okay, we, we get this, but you know, it takes time, but this can happen and maybe you avoid surgical costs or, you know, longer term pain management.

What are the outcomes that clients maybe, that have used Kaia help? What have they seen or what have you all seen? Um, in terms of outcomes?

Gemma: So we, we track formal clinical outcomes. Um, uh, we often even do analysis against claims, you know, to validate that. And we of course track, you know, personal, personal, uh, self-reported outcomes and, um.[00:35:00]

You know, I think that, um, a profound thing about pain is that sometimes for you, the personal outcome is more important. So it’s not just, you know, achieving necessarily what would be clinically classified as success, but the way you wanted to achieve it. You say, um, being able to walk your dog regularly now again?

Um, that’s kind of more meaningful for, for patients than maybe technically qualifying on a, a statistically significant two, two point improvement in pain and things like that. So, so we do track both. In general, we see at a minimum, kind of for every dollar you invest in a, in a, in something like in Kaia, you’re going to see at least $3 of cost savings down the road.

In fact, I’ve seen it as high as seven or $8 per dollar. Um, uh, the other interesting thing we hear about a lot [00:36:00] is, um, uh, especially in our, you know, employer, uh, client base, is that because Kaia is kind of in your pocket because it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s orientation is about just having something integrated at almost as tightly as breathing into your day.

Um, we, there’s a push out from the employee base that are particularly engaged at the workplace. So they’re the ones who drove our special ergonomic, um, you know, tutorials, webinars that get our coaches into onboard new employees about how they sit or, or just the importance of taking care of yourself in small ways every day for physical movement, whether you have pain or not.

And so I think that what, um, you know, I’m most proud of, uh. Beyond obviously our, our clinical outcomes and our patient reported outcomes, um, is that that push from the user back out into their community because it is [00:37:00] so, uh, achievable. There are small things that make a big difference and. While MSK is a tricky thing to isolate, uh, against other diseases, and while it’s expensive, it’s not quite as clear to identify it in, in individuals and what their needs are.

There’s a whole range of manifestations and needs in MSK. It’s also, in a way, one of the simplest universal ways to, to meet people, uh, where they are and to, and to have people begin to identify their needs. For their health, you know, because it’s, it’s, everyone has experience with pain. Everyone has experience with physical discomfort, um, from, from, you know, gifted athletes to, to sedentary, uh, moms, nobody in particular here, but, you know, but it’s, it’s a, it’s a great way to, to anchor kind of a wellness program, um, to anchor a sense of.[00:38:00]

Or, or to, to build a culture around meaningful self-care as opposed to, you know, a fashionable self-care, but, you know, meaningful, uh, small steps that can be demonstrated through the way you work and through the way you design your workspaces and you support your, your, your, your people at work. So I think, um, it’s complexity, uh, as a health issue.

Um. Is actually, um, uh, an interesting way to, to actually build out a wellness platform for people because it is such a, uh, a common and uniting concept, and it’s so easy to find ways to meaningfully, um, make an impact on improving, you know, MSK related issues, uh, for, for our population.

Christine: We just said at the beginning of this that, uh, MSK is a huge cost driver and growing for [00:39:00] organizations.

And here we just heard Gemma say you could see a three to one, uh, return. So, um, I think it’s helpful and again, from my own experience it was extremely helpful for me as well. So, uh, Gemma, I wanna thank you for sharing your insights. I think. This conversation really does help people understand that there are solutions to support pain management, MSK, health issues, and Kaia Health is certainly one of those, uh, digital platforms that can do that.

But before I let you go, um, I do have one final question. It is a question that I ask all guests. So are you ready? Question is, what do you do to support your own personal wellbeing? You just said that you’re a busy working mom and have all the things on your plate, but hopefully you do take time for yourself.

Gemma: I do. [00:40:00] And it’s terribly off brand my answer because it’s actually not physical. The, the thing that I have found is the, is the most meaningful way. Um. To, you know, maintain my mental health. And then that becomes my physical health is writing. And so every evening I write, even if it’s gibberish, sometimes I, I write lyrics to songs.

I do something to try to unpack my skull. Um, and I find that, uh, that makes me more likely to. Fall asleep better to actually do the workout. I booked at 5:00 AM Um, and so, so that is, um, that’s definitely my number one. And then I do have a physical one, and that is walking with no, no devices. So just listening to the birds or the trucks down, shifting on the highway, but whatever it is, it’s outside, it’s walking even if it’s freezing.

Um, those are the two things, and they have a lot in [00:41:00] common I think of, of just kind of, um. Um, getting back to, to, um, uh, the basics so that you kind of empty your thoughts and, and kind of start to notice that you’re breathing, that you’re sitting, that you’re moving. And I think, um, uh, that’s a, a great way for me to, to stay sane.

Christine: Well, I have to say writing is a first guest response ever, but I really appreciate that and. Uh, I wish I could do that. I need to find ways to sort of decompress and it sounds like a, a great thing. Walking. I love walking, but then I can’t ask you what your hype song is because you go fully No digital, no electronics.

I value that too. I appreciate that. Yeah. My

Gemma: music is all like jock rock. ’cause I have sons, so I, I put on my Pandora, I don’t know what they’ve done to it, so I’m basically like queen.

Christine: Well, we were just [00:42:00] talking about hype songs today, so, um, well, GEMMA thank you so much. This was really a great conversation and I think that our listeners have heard a lot about, you know, supporting MSK and how access to digital solutions can really help overcome some of those access issues.

Um, and really help people become more proactive before the pain worsens. So, thank you Gemma, and thank you all for listening to this episode of the HR Scoop.

“For most people, the unlock isn’t a waiting room—it’s small, consistent habits that meet you where you are.”

This conversation covers: 

• • Why MSK is so expensive and the 80/20 cost dynamic 
  • How Kaia’s “Motion Coach” adapts therapy to each user, plus education, relaxation and ergonomic tools 
  • Human support that sticks: integrated coaching, nudges and employee routines