Dr. Jennifer Lincoln, OBGYN & Author | Building Workplaces That Truly Support Women’s Health

Christine: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of the HR Scoop. I’m Christine Muldoon, your host, and today we are talking about what many actually are not the silence around women’s health. From adolescents to the reproductive phase to menopause and healthy aging. In fact, each stage of a woman’s life presents unique health challenges.

Which means we have a lot to know when it comes to our bodies and hormones. My guest today is Dr. Jennifer Lincoln, a board certified OB GYN, practicing OB hospitalist and author of the birth book and OBGYN’s Guide to Demystifying Labor and Delivery. Dr. Jennifer Lincoln is passionate about helping girls, women, and those assigned female at birth to understand their bodies and feel empowered to advocate for themselves.

She uses social media to educate, advocate, and bust the [00:01:00] many myths surrounding reproductive health and pregnancy with her community of over 4 million followers. She’s an author, regular media contributor. President-elect for the Society of OB GYN, hospitalists wife to a pediatrician and mom to two boys.

She received her undergraduate degree from Washington College and her medical degree from Tulane University School of Medicine. She completed her residency in Obstetrics and Gynecology at Oregon Health and Science University. Welcome Dr. Lincoln.

Jen: Thanks for having me. I’m, I’m excited to chat today.

Christine: Yes, so am I, I actually visited your website and your YouTube and I was actually completely sucked in.

I was watching all these videos, such great information. I would classify it as real talk on women’s health topics that have really traditionally been considered taboo. [00:02:00] Yeah, and I have to add nothing that my mom or my OB GYN actually shared with me. So it was incredibly insightful. Even at my age.

Jen: Aw, thank you.

Yeah, we, I mean, I create, I create for like the 16-year-old version of me that didn’t get any of that. And um, you know, you just get the bare bones when you’re younger and still nowadays. So I was like, okay, what gaps can I fill in? And, and they just keep coming. Yeah. And I just keep seeing more on social media.

I’m like, God, I’m never gonna run out. Never gonna run outta material.

Christine: No, certainly not. There’s a lot of gaps. And I actually think that I could have done a better job with my daughters. Now that I look at all this information. Your website,

Jen: we all did the best we could.

Christine: Yeah. Your website says you never plan to become a social media doctor explaining periods and childbirth to millions of followers, which I guess you don’t really think about that when you go to med school that you’re gonna, you know, do that.

But [00:03:00] I guess I have to ask what actually prompted you to. You know, build your career, but also then provide this evidence-based information, and certainly stigma free education about women’s bodies and their experiences that they’re going through.

Jen: No, you’re totally right. I went to med school, you know, back in the dark ages.

I, well, maybe not the totally dark ages, but I graduated in 2007, so like the iPhone hadn’t even been released. So life was very different back then. I think it’s very different now for people who are, you know, getting their education and, and social media is a huge part of what our patients see and us realizing we need to be in those spaces.

But for me it was never. I was never on the radar and I really got started through medical writing, doing, um, uh, you know, articles, writing and reviewing articles about pregnancy, breastfeeding, postpartum. I minored in English in college, so I love to write and I love to read. And you know, like I mentioned in the beginning, I got next to note, [00:04:00] next to nothing, education, not because my parents weren’t doing their best, you know, they also didn’t, um.

And I went to Catholic schools all my life, and I just mentioned that because, you know, most people can figure out that means really abstinence is only education, but that can happen in, even in a public school. And so I went off to college completely unprepared, and this was in the 19 hundreds, so there was no internet.

And um, you know, thankfully I did okay, but once I got to med school and then residency and just seeing what happens when people don’t know how their bodies work and when they think their bodies are shameful or dirty or, um, you know. They have to look a certain way or be a certain way and then enter the internet and social media.

And I just realized it was a place I could be where I could educate. I love what I do clinically and I will never not do that. But it’s very different when you can educate or create something and it can go viral and really help a lot of people. Um. So that’s how I find myself making tiktoks and YouTube videos and things that were never part of my life [00:05:00] plan.

You know, my vision board if I had one when I was younger. But it’s very fulfilling ’cause I feel like now more than ever, there’s so much misinformation out there and I get to be a part of the fixing of it. And that keeps me a little bit more sane, I think when I see some of the bad stuff out there, I go, okay, I can counteract that.

I can help people, which is nice.

Christine: And you’re using what you learned the evidence base to educate and it’s on topics and information that, you know, it’s, it’s very personal and it’s sometimes to your point, like, I could feel dirty or, but it’s like so important and it’s valid information. I think one of the things that, go ahead.

Yeah. I

Jen: was gonna say, I just, sometimes I think like, is this making any difference? But it’s the messages I get from people who are like, your post is the reason I felt like I could go to the gynecologist or talk about this, or like, not feel ashamed. And first that breaks my heart because the fact that people feel this way, but I know that they do.

Um, so to know that a stranger on the internet can somehow [00:06:00] help somebody access healthcare, it’s very empowering. And I just, I hope too that people see, we’re talking about these things so we can say words like, you know. Vagina and it’s okay. And it’s not a bad thing and, and I have a lot of hope. ’cause I think the younger generation is definitely more open and more willing to talk about these things.

So I think we’re, I think we’re on a good path when it comes to that.

Christine: So, uh, you know, along that, that those topics I was thinking about how a couple of years ago, um, we didn’t even acknowledge menopause in the workplace. Mm-hmm. And not that this conversation is about menopause. ’cause I know, and, and the listeners know I do a lot of talking about that.

But it was also a taboo topic. And, and you know, it’s like, oh, well, should we, and so anytime I got together with a friend, I’m like, Hey, menopause. And I was like, oh my God, you too, thank God. And like we’re, yeah, we’re opening up and talking about it. Right. One of the things that totally you had said is this whole.

Social media aspect, and you know, in today’s world we do have [00:07:00] access to so many online resources and so, mm-hmm. I’ll use menopause as an example. I can go and just like look something up about menopause. And once you do that, you are then bombarded with ads, products, celebrity recommendations. And so there’s so much of this misinformation that yeah, we’re like desperate at this point.

We could be easily swayed by. That, you know, celebrity that says, this product’s great. Mm-hmm. It totally changed my life. And so you though are using your expertise to really advance the understanding around things like reproductive health. And so in that context, we have HR leaders who are trying to support employee wellbeing in the workplace.

So how can they really think about addressing. Health misinformation without really overstepping the boundaries there.

Jen: Yeah, I, well, I think it’s a great [00:08:00] question that you’re even saying like, how can we help with this rather than just. Just, that’s not our lane. You know, we don’t wanna, we don’t wanna step into that.

’cause you’re right, it’s so real. And we could just have a whole conversation about how menopause has beco. It’s great that we’re talking about it, but the real reason we’re talking about it is because people have found ways to make money. And it’s a rabbit hole of some really bad stuff and supplements and celebrities, and even some physicians who are profiting.

So it’s really hard for people to know what’s good and what’s not. And so I think when it comes to. Supporting and helping your employees understand misinformation. I think that it can be really powerful to first realize that your employees come from all walks of life. They may not even know how many holes they have down there.

And I’m not even saying that as a joke, like literally. Um, and not that you should be asking them if they know that that would be overstepping and very weird. But the point is, is knowing that the health literacy of your employees is, is very variable. And one great thing that you can do is just help people know where to go for good information [00:09:00] or to show examples of what might be bad information.

And I give lots of talks about medical misinformation to college students and med students. And I have one slide that I always put up, which is, here’s how to figure out if something is good or not good. In terms of a source of info. So are these people experts? Are they an expert in this? Are they trying to sell you something?

Are there references? Does it seem extreme? Like it’s gonna kill you or save you? And it’s usually in between. And if you get through that whole thing, you know, it’s sort of like a decision tree, then you can think. You can think like, okay, maybe this is a good source or it’s not. And I think it can be helpful to.

Just share, you know, basic, um, health literacy information of here’s how to figure out what’s a good source or what’s not. Um, here’s a good example of a trusted resource. Here’s one that’s not so great, and know that some people, um, may not agree with you, right? Like, we know that there’s, you know, some beliefs and cultural beliefs in certain sources or certain practices, and you’re not gonna necessarily.

[00:10:00] Shift to the needle in that. But what you can do is give people some really good, trusted resources. Like if you have issues or you wanna talk to your doctor about periods or menopause, here’s like two top resources. And then folks can choose to engage or not, but at least they’ve got something they that they know.

Um, has sort of a rubber stamp, like, this is legit, this is good.

Christine: That’s a really good best practice, I would say. And mm-hmm. Obviously being in the wellbeing and health information space, um, you know, we’re part of our, our partner, uh, our part of our family with WebMD, where WebMD Health Services mm-hmm. You know, they are one of the most trusted health information brands today.

Right. And, you know, we take pride in being an extension of that and making sure and validating that even the wellbeing information that we’re putting in place in health information, that it is, you know, uh, trusted. It’s validated. It’s, you know, we’re not doing any sort of. Um, recommendations [00:11:00] or being influenced by, um, celebrities or mm-hmm.

You know, uh, advertising within what we produce on the wellbeing side. So I think that’s all really important. And when we think about women’s health, um, I think the other part is that it’s very complicated and it’s deeply personal, right? And so. Many people are looking for information because they’re going through something and they’re wondering, you know, is this normal?

But we don’t, we don’t know how to talk to someone, or we don’t know how to bring up a very personal health situation. And I’m sure you hear that question a lot. As an ob, GN, this is happening to me, is this normal? And with that kind of context of this question being asked, I wonder how. If, if it shows up in the workplace, how can an HR leader, um, or a colleague [00:12:00] really create an environment where they, where they feel safe asking it?

I mean, they don’t have to get to the level of personal information, but like, I wanna know if what’s going on with me? It’s normal.

Jen: Yeah. Well I think it’s so. Wonderful and so helpful to folks to know that they can talk about these things without getting penalized. Right? Like, um, somebody’s not gonna get written up ’cause they were talking about their hot flashes or their periods and so and so felt that was an inappropriate conversation.

So they reported it to hr, like, could we please, could we not? Like, I’m not saying that you should. Sit there and for six hours and not get your work done. ’cause you’re, you’re talking about this. But the point is, is that we have to, especially for women, help them feel that they’re in a place where they can talk about these things because it may be the only community that they have and the only people that they interact with that they feel that they can.

And I think a really cool way to do it is you show people what’s acceptable to talk about with how you approach these things. So. Period. Poverty is huge and it’s real. [00:13:00] And we know that there are many women, including in the United States, who have to use period products longer than they should ’cause they can’t afford them or they’re using toilet paper or, um, you know, it.

Things like this, which obviously is not ideal. And so in the workplace, do you provide free period products? And I know lots of people automatically go to, well, they’re just, every time I do that, they get taken. Amazing. That’s probably somebody who needed them, right? Like I know that might be a, you know, a line item that you wish you didn’t have to budget for.

But can you do that? Because when you do that, you show that you care. Um. Do you, you know, and, and you can even put up little things I’ve seen in the bathrooms about periods and, and affirmations or hot flashes and affirmations. Do you have fans of, like, do you just have a culture where you can talk about these things, whether it’s a, you know, just in the general group or do you have individual support groups where you allow these things to be talked about?

I gave a talk for a, a shoe company and it was, you know, it was like the female group and we talked about all the stigma stuff. Applauded them. ’cause I was like, I’m so glad you guys even have [00:14:00] this. And it’s optional, you know, people don’t have to engage. But if they want to over their lunch break, be part of a group where they’re talking about these things, they’re reading books, they’re feeling like they have a community.

Um, and so leaders shouldn’t feel like they can’t talk about their hot flash that they’re having or when they’re on the Zoom call, like say, Hey, oh my gosh, this is what’s happening. Awesome. ’cause you’ve just shown somebody that they can acknowledge it and it’s not gonna be seen as a weakness. Um. Or as something that you’re like, oh my God.

Like, you know, I can’t believe Brenda’s talking about this again. Like, we have to, otherwise we feel that we can’t. And this whole theory of like, we’ll just work through it, um, it’s, it doesn’t work well. It never has. It didn’t work well when you were 13 and you were told that you’re just supposed to get through the school day or just miss gym class and that’s normal ’cause it’s not.

And I got a whole lot of content on that. Um, but just creating a space of, you know, we can talk about it, here are resources that can help you, I think is really important. I

Christine: completely agree. I, I’m starting to see, uh, more and more organizations using employee resource groups, [00:15:00] um mm-hmm. To talk about different health topics.

So, you know, women’s health, well, let’s create an ERG for that. And then that is, you know, sort of like a. I wanna say safe place, but it’s a place where you are, you and your peers come together and you want to discuss these topics and

Jen: you know Right. You’re not forced to you, but it’s optional. That’s right.

Yes. Yeah.

Christine: And of course, I mean, sort of probably dating myself, but that’s okay. I do it all the time. Um, you know, when I had children, we didn’t even have lactation rooms. So, you know, I, I think what I’m trying to say is we’ve come a long way, but there’s still a long way to go. As well. Right. When we look at, um, women’s health in the workplace.

Jen: Yeah. And lactation is a huge part of it. I mean, I know we’re gonna talk more about pregnancy and postpartum, but that’s a perfect example. Like, do you have a space and is it just you have a space, it’s six blocks away and, and we’re saying we have a space, but it’s not actually accessible and there’s not a lock on the [00:16:00] door and your boss is penalizing you ’cause you’re going there.

Or do we like. Are we doing it right? And I think that some places are doing a great job. Others are just sort of performatively saying they support it. But, um, and we know that when we support women, especially in things like breastfeeding and returning to work, it’s a huge return on investment for, for employers.

So, um, but I know we’ll talk about that more too, but I’m glad you brought up.

Christine: We can talk about all of this for hours and hours. Yeah. Um, what I wanted to share was, uh, so at WebMD Health Services, our mission is to empower wellbeing in everyone. And, um, you have said that education is empowerment. And I think the more that we can educate and empower people with information about their health, you know, women specifically there as well, um, we become more confident, more proactive, and really, you know, more in control of, you know, being, doing a better job, understanding what’s going on with us and [00:17:00] really being able to navigate.

Own our own care and our own decisions. So if we were to include executive leaders, um, on this podcast and thinking about their company wellbeing strategy, where does reproductive and uh, maternal health empowerment fit into that holistic wellbeing approach or strategy?

Jen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love this question because wellbeing is not.

Giving out stress balls or having a masseuse come, although you should have a masseuse come. Everybody love ause every day, but like every day, therapy dogs, we should have all the things, but real wellbeing is actually walking the walk and talking the talk or, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and when it comes to reproductive health and maternal health, um, we know that when women feel supported in their reproductive journeys at work, they are more likely to stay employed, stay around, um.

And be leaders, right? Like a woman who can have three kids and [00:18:00] also do her job. Like that’s somebody who can multitask and like we should be not trying to demote her or look down on her ’cause she’s pregnant again, but like instead, wow, what an amazing person that she can do this. So I think that when it comes to workplaces and thinking about this, it’s what are your policy?

And I mean, I gotta be honest, we have the wor, the United States is horrible for working mothers, right? We have the worst, not even just working mothers, but mothers in general. We have the worst maternal morbidity and mortality. Um, we have the, we’re going backwards when it comes to access to things like birth control and abortion.

We have the shortest life expectancy rates. We pay the, we spend the most per capita for healthcare, but we get the worst return of any developed nation. Like I could go on and on and it’s really bad. And a huge part of it is that. We don’t have real access to care. So in a perfect world, an employer would do so much more than just the bare minimum when it comes to leave and family medical leave.

You know, I went back to work at six weeks after my first, and it was the worst time of my life. Like in a perfect world, everybody gets a year paid [00:19:00] leave and you know, has that support. I know we’re not Canada, but. That would be nice. Yeah. Um, but really thinking what healthcare benefits do you really offer?

Um, we are in a world where we know that insurance coverage is getting worse, benefits are getting worse. Um, how a, how easy do you make it for your employees to actually access care? So are you penalizing them for the fact that they need an acute appointment and or they didn’t, but they finally got off the wait list to get that annual in?

And they only have a couple hours notice, and are you making it a big deal that they have to miss half a day of work to finally see the doctor? They had been trying so desperately hard to get in with. Um. So how easy are you making it for them to get the healthcare they need? How are you helping them when it comes to coming back to work?

If you are in a state where abortion is restricted or banned, how are you helping them? There are some companies that are doing really great things in terms of travel, um, and how are you advocating for change? Because the big employers have big impact at the table when it comes to legislation and lobbying.

So how are you [00:20:00] trying to help women, especially when it comes to having more leave, having more rights protection in the workplace and postpartum? Um, this could be like a whole six hour seminar that would, you know, talk, but it’s really just about not trying to do the bare minimum, but realizing that when you invest more in your employees, they’re gonna stick around longer and eventually make you more money and cost you less when it comes to turnover and those things.

And I just think it’s really important. The other thing too, I would say is. Really taking a good, hard look at who’s in leadership. Are women equally represented or are they penalized for having kids? What about the salaries? Um, I could talk all day about that. As a female physician, we make less and, and, you know, and yet we spend more time with patients and they’re less likely to die when they’re under the care of somebody who’s female.

So just thinking and really doing that work and understanding that when you do it, um, you’re gonna get better outcomes and you’re gonna make more money and, and like your company’s gonna do better.

Christine: And And employees, those employees are more likely to actually come back. I [00:21:00] mean,

Jen: exactly.

Christine: Yes. Women are having to choose between, uh, oh gosh.

Do I, I wanna put my. My child in daycare, he or she’s only six weeks old, but I have to go back, forget it. You know, and the cost of daycare and the, all of those decisions. I don’t think we’ve made a lot of progress.

Jen: We sure we haven’t. We really haven’t. We’ve just changed what we think we can do and, and the bar has been raised and now we’re all just doing more.

Um, but we’re not getting like the, the support that should go with it. So like, do you have the ability to have a company nursery? Um. That’s huge. That is a huge satisfier and, and, and a huge thing that could not only mean that your employees are coming back, but they might come back sooner. Um, do you allow for a graduated return to work, do you have the ability to allow for hybrid work?

Like now with the pandemic, we have so much data to show that we can do so much more. We don’t have to be in personal all the time. So how do we support new parents instead of saying, well, if you’re gonna do it, we’re gonna do it this way. This is the way it’s always worked. You know, built in a [00:22:00] society when only men were at work and they had full-time wives who were at home to take care of them.

We’re just not there anymore. It

Christine: shouldn’t

Jen: be,

Christine: right?

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So, um, again, another topic that we could probably talk for for hours, I wanna go a little bit deeper, um, and specifically drill down a little bit more about the stages of pregnancy. Mm-hmm. Um, you describe birth as both transformational. And potentially traumatic, which I think I could understand that part.

Can you first explain a little bit more about when you say transformational and potentially traumatic?

Jen: Yeah, so this is not to scare anybody who’s pregnant or thinking of having a baby, but the riskiest thing almost any of us will do is get pregnant and have a baby. And that’s because, um. You know, we have come such a long way in terms of medical care and safety, and we used to not always make it out of childbirth.

Now that we do, and we’ve got so many advances, it’s still the riskiest thing a lot of us will ever put our bodies through. [00:23:00] And so it’s transformational in that you are growing a human or maybe more than one, and you are birthing a human, but you are also birthing a new version of yourself. You are becoming a different version of yourself.

I would say a better version because you. Um, you know, if you are wanting to get pregnant and, and start a family, like, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing and wonderful, but it’s very different and your priorities will shift, which is okay. Um, but it can be traumatic and scary, not just from a medical standpoint.

We know that one in three births are identified as being traumatic to women who give birth in the United States. And I’m not just talking about. Medical complications, like, oh, I had a, a really scary C-section or a shoulder dystopia, but this includes psychological trauma too. Um, and I talk a lot about that in my book and how to identify and advocate, but a lot of it comes from a lack of access and a lack of knowing and education and knowing what to expect.

And I think that the other thing too, that we have to really recognize too is that 50% of [00:24:00] pregnancies are unplanned. And so not being able to feel like you’re in your best spot financially or emotionally. Or psychologically, or even your physical or mental health can really put a lot of stress on your pregnancy, even if it’s a wanted pregnancy.

And then add on that you might work in a place where you’re not sure if the job’s gonna be there when you get back, or how are you gonna take this time and not have any pay. Um, it can be really hard and it’s really hard to have a baby in a country where we’re not always supported the best that we can.

So how can we make it better so that those things people don’t have to worry about.

Christine: Okay, so all of those, I’m shaking my head. Yeah, I get that. I agree with that. So what do we, like, what could we say to leaders in an organization about what employees are actually navigating when you think about pregnancy and postpartum?

Because it’s not just, oh yeah, the pregnancy’s hard. I get it, but there’s

Jen: mm-hmm.

Christine: There’s all the things you [00:25:00] said plus then add in that postpartum like it. What, what do employers need to know?

Jen: Mm-hmm. I would love employers to know that there’s no one size fits all when it comes to pregnancy. And you know, you may yourself or you know, people who’ve like sailed through pregnancy, right?

It’s like the happiest they’ve ever been and they’re feeling great. And then there are other folks who that whole first trimester. They have hyperemesis Gera where they can’t keep anything down and they’re, they might be hospitalized ’cause they can’t keep anything down and they need IV fluids or they have an unexpected complication.

And I, I just, I want employers to know, to give some grace and have some flexibility and understanding and know that not everything can fit a box. And one example is I’ll see patients in triage who, for whatever reason, they can’t go back to work the next day, they’ve had bleeding or whatever. And I’ll write the note of like why they can’t.

And it always says, you know, what are the restrictions? And I always, you know, I, I always struggle with that ’cause I’m like, there’s no one size fits all, like, lifting restrictions [00:26:00] or how many breaks per day somebody should have. And so I write in whatever this patient says she can’t do, please listen to her if she needs to be able to stop and drink or hydrate.

Um, and are there people who might abuse that? Sure. But the vast majority of pregnant people, like if they tell you, I need to, you know, I can’t lift this. You know, and it might only be 10 pounds because I have pubic synthesis dysfunction versus somebody else who could easily lift 20 pounds. So I just want employers to understand that these things need to be individualized to leave room, that not everything’s predictable.

Um, that if your employee is in the hospital on antepartum, you know, for care, and she’s there for seven days, like. Please don’t bother her. Like please understand. Um, and then postpartum iss a whole separate thing of like, you don’t just bounce back in six weeks and then you come back. Like, I would just love folks to understand that it takes like a good year for, I think post full postpartum recovery, mentally, physically, um.

To know that and to know that somebody might need a little support or grace in that first year. But if you give them that, [00:27:00] they’re gonna be so appreciative. They’re gonna have such loyalty, um, which is going to positively affect you and, and, and really help your organization. So like why wouldn’t you want to lean into that and be known as a company where.

Somebody who’s pregnant is fully supported. Um, and I I, I do wanna touch on too, that it’s not just about the people who give birth. We gotta talk about partners. Uh, men do not get enough recognition for actually when their partners have a baby. Their hormones fluctuate in, in a huge way too.

Christine: Oh,

Jen: they’re not sleeping.

They’re at risk for postpartum depression, anxiety. But we also have to understand adoption, surrogacy, um, but also pregnancy loss, stillbirth, abortion care. All of these require. And people should be allowed to get what they need to recover from those. And it’s gonna be different for everyone.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think you, you sort of forget about, um, the men and the vast, um, situations.

They’re all mm-hmm. [00:28:00] Personal, um, to, to the point that you said before about, you know, if you do these things. If your employees feel like you, you know, you really do care and that they, they’ll have a better transition back to work.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Christine: If they do choose to come back. And you know, I like to look at it as we talk about organizational care and that’s about organizations that are truly committed and show that they genuinely care about the wellbeing of their employees.

And these are all. Elements to that. It’s not just, oh, we offer you a wellbeing program, we care about you. Mm-hmm. No. It’s really how you handle all of these different, um, uniquely different and personal situations.

Jen: Right. And some people want to share. Right. And others may not. And I think it’s really important for employers to know, like, it’s okay if this person may not wanna give all the details.

Like what is the minimum needed to, to. [00:29:00] To be able to do your job. I just think it’s really important. It’s so personal and there’s a, there’s a healthy fear of retribution or, you know.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Um, you’re not gonna be promoted or you’re gonna come back to work and everybody feels like, oh my God, she took a vacation.

Okay. No.

Christine: Yeah.

Jen: However, my

Christine: mouth,

Jen: a human comes outta you, like with a water watermelon’s coming outta your vagina or you’re having major abdominal surgery, like it’s not a break. Um, so there’s a healthy fear of these things, but I think, like you said, it’s the, it’s the culture of. Um, what is tolerated and, and how should people be treated?

It’s really basic. It’s the rules of kindergarten, you know,

Christine: and you can have employees that actually do wanna share, but they’re uncertain of what the repercussions would be if they do share

Jen: Exactly.

Christine: Like, oh, she’s not stable, or she can’t do this job. Mm-hmm. Right, right. So let’s, let’s talk a little bit about policies and benefits, because mm-hmm.

We know that they can make a meaningful [00:30:00] difference for, um, various women’s health situations. But again, we’re talking about pregnancy and postpartum here. Um, but organiza, like, I’ll, I’ll use menopause as an example. So, a benefit that organizations think is very helpful, and it may be in some situations, is offering a fan for your desk.

Ooh, that might be great, but that’s not the only thing that is going to be Right. That’s not gonna

Jen: fix it all.

Christine: So are there certain, um, policies or benefits, which maybe sound good on paper, but they fall short in practice when it

Jen: mm-hmm.

Christine: Comes to pregnancy and postpartum?

Jen: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is that it’s like, what is the actual policy?

If you just have a policy that says that you have, you are allowed to have access to this lactation room. But like I mentioned earlier, what if it’s like in a completely different building and it’s never, there’s not a lock on the door so you don’t feel safe and there’s no [00:31:00] sink. So you can wash your parts.

Like do you really have a lactation policy or do you just have one on paper that you can say, oh, we do this. Um, you know, and I think that. There’s some policy, you know, that’s a great example of a policy that’s not so great. Um, but I know of organizations that do a phenomenal job with this and like, that’s just part of the culture and like when you go there, you’re not to be bothered, you know?

Um, or I’ve seen some organizations that, um, contract with some companies or apps that offer some great. Postpartum or pregnancy benefits where there’s a sleep therapist that you can check in with and your own therapist and access to reliable information so that they know I can go to this app and this site, it’s been vetted by my company.

And it’s an, it’s like an actual benefit. Um, and it means that your employees can access answers and care and maybe they don’t miss a day of work now because they were able to get access or have a virtual appointment. I think that’s, so it can be really great, especially when it’s really hard to Yeah. To get [00:32:00] in.

Um. So those are just some that like are top of mind. I think when it comes to benefits. Um, really look at your benefit policy and see is it inclusive? Are you. Understanding that not everybody who has is pregnant, has a baby, wants to be referred to as a mother. Are you also understanding that there are non birthing partners who also, um, like I said, you know, if they, they’re also experiencing changes.

Are they covered? Do you cover things like adoption, pregnancy loss? Are there days for leave, like for periods or for menopause? Like, do you have these things in place and you’re not penalizing somebody? Um, and when it comes to the return to work stuff like. How, what can you give them? Can you give them a little more time?

Can you allow them to come back in a part-time way? Um, and can you, and are you tracking your data? I would love, I, I, I don’t know if companies do this. This is not my world. But do we track data on promotions? And is there any correlation to folks who’ve had, who’ve taken maternity leave that they’re not being promoted at the same way?

I, I don’t know the answer to that, but I think it’s just really [00:33:00] good to internally keep an eye on yourself and be like, you’re right. You know, we don’t think we’re doing this, but actually we’re, we’re, we’re unknowingly penalizing them, you know? Um. And understand that kids get sick. Oh my God. Especially if they’re in daycare.

Like, oh my God, please do not, like, I have seen places where people run out of vacation days and PTO days ’cause their kid has got their 12th, you know, virus for the year. How can we be better? Because they’re not lazy. It’s just that the daycare called, ’cause they, you know, whatever they sneeze the wrong way.

Have wrong now, now you can pick them up.

Christine: Yeah.

Jen: So, you know, and, and they don’t want to trust me. No mom wants that call. It’s not like, yeah, I get a day off. No. Yeah. You do not want the pink eye call. It’s the worst.

Christine: And even when we think about policies and benefits, if you are an organization that’s trying to decide what the right thing is, ask your employees.

You know, there’s no harm in saying if we put this in place, a lactation room on the first floor, even though we’re located on the seventh. Does that still [00:34:00] work? Or, you know, what else can we provide? Look at your work environment. Mm-hmm. If you have employees that, um, travel a lot, they’re mainly on the road, then a lactation room for them is not probably the best benefit.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Christine: But helping them with some delivery of, you know, breast milk when, once they’ve pumped or something. The, just looking at what’s the best, what are the needs of your employees? And we say that for wellbeing too. Like don’t just put in place. Elements of a program, what are the needs of your people?

Jen: Yeah, I think you’re so like asking and making it so people feel safe. If they answer, they’re not worried. Like, why are they asking me this? Are they trying to, you know, and I don’t like employers. If you’re like, why do people not trust us? It’s because we have been harmed by HR before. Some of us have. Um.

I could go into a story all day as a unionized position who was on strike for 46 days last year, and the retaliation that happened after, like, some of us have trust issues and you can ask why, and you can [00:35:00] get this information sometimes in ways that doesn’t feel threatening or, you know, do you need their name or could it be anonymous?

Like, because you’re gonna get some real good answers and you’re gonna figure out what they really need. Um. Which means that then when you, when you ask, then you have to like follow up and, and listen. Do the thing and, um, take

Christine: action. Some action.

Jen: Yeah. Right, right. Be willing and then include them in part of that and then celebrate their input and be like, you know, we had thought about this, but thanks to this unit, they told us this room should be here and thank you so much.

And, and when you, when your employees feel they have agency and they’re being heard, that’s wonderful. ’cause that’s not how it’s everywhere, you know?

Christine: Right. That’s gold. So if we have, um, A-C-H-R-O or A-C-A-E-O listening, uh, to this podcast, what do they need to understand about supporting employees through birth and early parenthood that would shape their employees overall engagement, retention, [00:36:00] and trust over time?

I think we’ve hit on some of this, but we’re gonna capture their attention right now.

Jen: Yeah, I would say don’t see your employees who are getting pregnant, um, as like, oh, another one we have to do, you know, we see it as an amazing opportunity because if you treat them right. They will stick around and they will then become the best ambassadors for future hires at your company.

There is nothing that speaks better to a program that takes care of its employees when they’re sick, when they’re having kids, when there’s a family crisis and you feel like you’re not gonna get in trouble or lose your job. Um, so all the things that I said before. And I think really being willing to listen and to think outside the box because the current way that we do work, it’s changed since the pandemic.

It’s a bit better. But like this current idea of nine to five, five days a week is like so silly for most places. And we’ve, the data has shown that you can, you can work differently and get not just the [00:37:00] same but better results. So how can you meet your new parents in a better way? Um, not that they’re lazy, but understand that they now have a full-time job outside of the home.

Um, which they’re not getting paid for. It’s, it’s just costing them money. Um, so they have a new set of priorities, but it doesn’t mean that they’re gonna be, um, a detriment to your company. They’re actually an asset because they are now thinking in a different way and are able to be more productive. Um, you know, a lot of studies have shown, um, and I think just to really understand that, that first year is so hard from a physical but mental standpoint, and that’s when they need the most support.

And if you show up for them. That, that will speak volumes and that will affect loyalty and retention in ways that I don’t know if a lot of employers really, really understand.

Christine: Yeah. We don’t leave what, um, goes on in our home, in our life at the door. Mm-hmm. When we walk into work at 9:00 AM it, it just, it’s all one [00:38:00] thing now and we need to recognize that.

And I would add leadership support 100%. If

Jen: you’re, you know, no, I’m sorry. I was just gonna say a huge thing like to CEOs and CHROs, like, do you talk about your own family, like in talks and stuff, like, I find it very encouraging when a leader is like, oh, I’m so sorry I was 10 minutes late. My, you’re showing that it’s a safe place to actually acknowledge that you have a family, which sounds so basic.

Um, but I think that’s really important and it shows employer employees, like you don’t have to not talk about these things to be seen as professional. Yeah,

Christine: no, that’s, uh, we, we say the same thing around even mental health, like

Jen: mm-hmm.

Christine: You know, reduce the stigma and, and talk about your, you know, oh my God, I didn’t sleep, I’m so stressed.

Or, you know, it’s okay. Mm-hmm. It really is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, we have had such an amazing conversation. I kind of don’t want it to end, but I, I truly wanna thank you really for bringing your [00:39:00] experience. Um. Educating on women’s health, um, to how we can support women’s health needs in the workplace. And I’m actually not gonna let you go just yet because I have one more question which I ask all guests.

So, Dr. Jen Lincoln, um, you are not only a practicing physician and a spokesperson educating women and women’s health, but a busy mom of two boys, so. What’s one small shift, either personally or professionally that has made the biggest difference in your personal wellbeing?

Jen: Oh, I love this question. Um, and I think the answer.

It might sound not great to employers, but I actually think it is great and it’s so, I’m a doctor and I love my job. Like people are like, what would you do if you didn’t do this? And I, you know, I might be a librarian ’cause I, I love books so much, but like, I seriously don’t think I could do anything else.

And so I love, love, love what I do. [00:40:00] And I think the biggest shift that has impacted me the most is that. When I die or when I retire, people might be sad for a little bit, but the place is gonna go on and the work is gonna go on. And the, the people that really matter the most are, you know, my husband and my kids.

And so I love my work, but I have found a way to do it that I don’t bring it home with me. And when I’m home, I’m home doesn’t mean I’m not thinking about things. Doesn’t mean that I don’t think my job is, is immensely important. But I also realize that I’m not as important as I think I am. And I think it’s really important for people.

For employees to understand that, that, um, on your deathbed, people are not gonna talk about how many hours you worked or how great you were, that you never took a vacation day or a sick day. But they will remember how you made them feel, and it will be your family that will, you know, that, that will care the most.

And so take care of them. So find a way to do your job that. Doesn’t ruin your home life, that doesn’t leave you feeling so depleted. And that boundaries are a [00:41:00] blessing and that it’s, you know, it’s okay to figure out what works for you and for employers to know that and to figure out that you want your employees to feel that they can do their job to the best of their ability.

And you want them to have a life outside of work and you want to make them feel that they’re not competing. Um, and I, listen, I say that like it’s so easy. I understand that it’s not, but, um, but yeah, and, and, and to know that. You can love your work and it should not define you because if you do, if it does, um, you can get burnt out so easily.

And the goal here is to be able to do what you love for as long as possible, as long as it, it fulfills you. So, yeah, that’s my it.

Christine: Wow. I, I think that, I, I think we can all learn from that. Uh, I’ll say one thing, not exactly as, as graceful as you did, but my. Uh, mom used to be crazy about that house. Always had to be clean and a friend.

Then I sort of, my sister and I kind of took that on and a friend said, you know, um, when you die, people aren’t going to [00:42:00] say, wow. Do you want people to say, wow, her house was always clean. No, I, I met someone to say like, I was genuine, smart, caring. I don’t know.

Jen: No, it’s so true and I think it’s so important for people to realize, especially for women who have, have, you know, work a.

It’s not a balance, it’s juggling plates. And some you can drop some days and others you can’t and like, you’re not gonna be perfect and nobody’s doing it all. That’s great. Like people ask me, how do you do it all? Jen i’s like, well, I work part-time and I have somebody who helps clean my house. And I, some days I don’t care if we’re in the drive-through and other days I like, we have to be real and we have to stop acting like this is, you know, sustainable.

’cause the idea, the model that we’ve based all of this on, like I said, it’s a, you know, a full-time job where somebody has somebody at the home. At home who’s taking care of you? Like it just doesn’t exist. Like, great if your house is clean, if that brings you joy. If it doesn’t, who cares? That’s

Christine: right. Wow.

We got a lot of lessons learned, I think, more than we expected. Out of today’s podcast. I wanna thank you, [00:43:00] Dr. Jennifer Lincoln for being my guest today. And honestly, if anybody wants to learn more about women’s health from someone who I would say is honest and takes the time to educate, I would visit Dr.

Jennifer Lincoln’s website. Www dot Dr. Jennifer Lincoln, spelled L-I-N-C-O-L n.com because she has great resources out there. And check out her, um, videos too, because they’re very educational on so, so many topics. So thank you all for listening to this episode of the HR Scoop, and thank you, Jen.

Jen: Thanks for having me.

From maternal health risks to lactation policies that go beyond “just having a room,” this conversation dives into how employers can move from performative benefits to meaningful support.

“If you treat them right, they will stick around.” 

This conversation covers: 

• • Why pregnancy and postpartum require individualized, flexible support
  • What leaders can do to normalize conversations around women’s health
  • How benefits and policies can fall short—and how to fix them
  • Why boundaries and well-being matter for long-term sustainability

If organizations want engagement, trust, and retention, supporting reproductive and maternal health isn’t optional. It’s foundational.