Jocelyn Frye from National Partnership for Women & Families | Turning Workplace Equity into Meaningful Action

Christine: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of the HR Scoop. I’m Christine Muldoon, your host, and today we’re talking about improving the lived experiences of women and families. My guest today is Jocelyn Frye, the president of the National Partnership for Women and Families, founded in 1971 as the Women’s Legal Defense Fund.

The National Partnership for Women and Families is a national, non-profit, non-partisan advocacy organization located in Washington DC that works to change policy and culture in the United States. Under her leadership, the organization is focused on advancing economic justice, affordable and equitable healthcare and reproductive freedom for women who face the steepest barriers.

Prior to joining the National Partnership, Jocelyn was a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, one of the country’s foremost progressive think [00:01:00] tanks. Jocelyn also served in the White House during the administration of Barack Obama where she focused on improving the lives of women and families.

She helped lead the two signature initiatives, tackling childhood obesity and supporting military families. She also played an important part in fostering career development opportunities for young women through the White House Leadership and Mentoring initiative. Jocelyn received her JD from Harvard Law School and her undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan.

Welcome, Jocelyn.

Jocelyn: Well, thank you for having me, Christine. It’s great to be here.

Christine: I’m a little intimidated. You have an amazing bio and are super smart, so hopefully I can make this a great conversation.

Jocelyn: Oh my gosh, you should not worry about any of that.

Christine: Well, before we dive in, I wanted to ground us in the work of the national Partnership, [00:02:00] so the national partnership.

Is all about improving the lives of women and families, particularly, as I said in my intro, those who face the greatest barriers to equity and opportunity. So with that lens in mind, Jocelyn, you’ve spent your career shaping policy at the highest level. So can you explain a little bit more about the national partnership and where workplaces are either accelerating.

Or stalling progress for women and families?

Jocelyn: It’s a great question, Christine, and thank you so much for having me, uh, here today. Um, I think what, where I would start is that the National Partnership for Women and Families, we often say that our focus is on making sure that women can lead the lives that they want to lead.

And in particular, what we have known throughout our history [00:03:00] is that women’s ability to participate in the economy, to support their families, to, uh, develop their own careers, um, to to think about, you know, the range of meats of their families and their communities, that freedom to make those decisions for themselves is critical.

Not only for their economic stability, but for them just to live in a society in the way that they want to live. So we have always focused on women workers and women’s employment and making sure that women can, uh. Uh, find the jobs that they want, stay in those jobs, succeed in those jobs, and so forth.

Where I see the most progress is to the extent that employers recognize women workers, like any worker, their whole being and their whole [00:04:00] purpose that they aren’t, um. Uh, pigeonholed, so to speak, in one particular corner, in one particular type of job. And the employers offer the flexibility that women need.

But really all workers need to both be productive workers, but also to be productive in their own families, to not sacrifice their, um. That the faculty of caregiving responsibilities or other types of responsibilities, and instead they understand that they, they’re sort of hiring a whole person. And there are different things that they can do to make sure that that person is as productive as possible.

I think that’s where progress is happening when, when you see employers who invest and in support the, the health and wellbeing, the overall person, that’s where progress is happening, where there [00:05:00] isn’t progress. The flip side of your question is to the extent employers are. Rigorously and stubbornly holding on to a conception of the workforce that is no longer practical or relevant or attuned to the realities of workers on the ground.

We have a pay gap. Women experience a pay gap, women of color experiences steeper pay gap. Those wages have largely stalled. Depending on whether you’re looking at all workers, about 76 cents per worker, 81 cents. If you’re looking at full-time, many, there are too many women who don’t have access to things like paid family leave and paid sick days.

So they do have to make a choice. Uh, there are too many workers who don’t have the flexibility that they need to be able to manage family, but also be at work, those sorts of things. Hold women back, but they also make workplaces less [00:06:00] productive. And so the, they’re the sort of the two, um, the two ends of the spectrum.

One where progress is happening and one where progress is still needed.

Christine: You talk about both those spectrums and I think that’s a really important, um, place to ground us in this conversation because. When you talk about, okay, so organizations, employers are investing in employee health and wellbeing, and certainly for women with the emphasis on, you know, the reproductive years and, and caregiving.

But there’s still more to do as we see women. Progress to midlife and the impact their health and wellbeing and the next stage of their life as being, you know, a parent. Um, and then even all of a sudden becoming part of that sandwich generation where now they’re supporting. You know, their family, but [00:07:00] also aging parents as well.

Um, this is something that at WebMD Health Services, we very much focus on as well, continually supporting organizations who evolve their wellbeing initiatives. Then looking at the other end and what organizations are not doing well. I think the, the pay gap is one that still continues, um, to be something that certainly.

Is not equitable and it is holding women back. And then you sort of have to make those decisions. Do I continue to be in the workforce or do I step back and, you know, really cont you know, focus on being my, my caregiver job at that point. And I think, you know, it’s really amazing the work that the National Partnership is doing and obviously at its core.

Um, you, you talk about how they’re, how the, the partnership is grounding its work in lived experiences, and [00:08:00] I would assume that these are certainly real stories and experiences of women and families, and you take those examples and then you focus on initiatives and policies that help improve. Um, those lived experiences.

And so our audience for this podcast is HR leaders, and those are people within the workplace that genuinely want to support their people. So from their perspective then, how do you know what does it mean to center lived experiences? When an HR professional is looking at designing benefits and policies, what can they learn?

From those experiences and what the National Partnership is doing to support their workplace?

Jocelyn: Well, it’s a a great question. What I would say to any HR leader, um, in any leader in a, um, in employment [00:09:00] setting is that you take your workers as you find them and not as you want them to be. You talk to them.

You engage them, you find out if they are disproportionately caregivers or, uh, are they young parents or do they have other sorts of needs? You would do the same thing internally that you might ex do externally to understand your audience and who’s, uh, listening in and who, what, who your customers are, you’re trying to serve.

So I would say to anybody, start by asking people, asking people the cha about the challenges that they’re facing. Whether it’s, you know, commuting. Maybe they, they’re commuting for an hour, or maybe it’s some other set of issues. Understanding who your people are is where you start. Then I think you ask the [00:10:00] question, are there barriers that are confronting your people that make it harder for them to perform at the level that they want to and that you need them to, to be the most productive and.

To your point about the history of the national partnership, that’s how we started. Our work began focused on women who were entering the workforce, who were encountering barriers, people who weren’t hired. We, we were started as, you know, in 1971, before there was a Pregnancy Discrimination Act. Before there was a Family Medical Leave Act, we helped write the Family Medical Leave Act and, and led.

It’s the coalition that helped get it passed, but we heard these stories from folks who couldn’t get jobs because people assumed they had kids or they might have kids, and that would be additional responsibilities that would take them away from work. People who were assumed that [00:11:00] once they became pregnant, that they were no longer good workers, people who were assumed that they couldn’t move into leadership.

All these barriers that we were hearing. Gave us a roadmap to how we had to begin to help to build support for those workers. And it’s not very different from workers in any workplace today if you know that the reason that. Your, uh, women are leaving at a certain stage in your workforce. You should ask them.

Many times it is because they have childcare needs or they have care, other caregiving needs, or, um, they need to take some time off. But then it’s hard to come back. You know, what we’ve seen from employers who themselves document it. They will say, Monique. Adopted paid leave. When we were responsive to the needs of women workers that we listened to what they said to us, it improved our retention, it improved our [00:12:00] morale.

It, it improved our investment in these workers who we started with, who could then stay with us over the long haul. So I, I would always start with asking folks what their barriers are and then working collaboratively about w. What are the things that we can do to be supportive? And if we do those things, how can we make sure that you can be most productive?

I, I would always start there.

Christine: Um, you know, that’s actually a best practice, I think for any organization looking to implement. Really anything for their employees. If you just assume and you put in place something that’s a very generic program, you’re not going to meet the needs of your employees. So why not ask?

Because you could be so far off and they’re just asking for something pretty simple. So it’s a, it’s a great point. [00:13:00] Um, find out what your employees need, right.

Jocelyn: Find out what they need and find out. Um, every community is different. You know, there are some communities where the commutes are really long, so what people may need is some support and flexibility because they have to leave in order to get their kid from aftercare without incurring certain fees.

Right? Like, you know, every community is different. Some communities, everybody drives to work. Some communities nobody drives to work. You know, it, it, there’s not necessarily a cookie cutter. And I think in today’s workforces, cookie cutter solutions don’t often work and it’s in everybody’s best interest to have a more thoughtful approach to.

What’s unique to our workforce? What are those needs and can we [00:14:00] address them? And even on issues, as you were talking about pay for example, a lot of times employers don’t even really look like pay gaps happen for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it’s for people not paying attention. Sometimes it’s around assumptions about certain types of jobs.

But you’re never gonna fix it if you don’t actually look. Pretty regularly do an audit, assess sort of where people are, like those sorts of things you can do on your own as HR to figure out what are the types of things we’re hearing from people and how can we be responsive to those needs.

Christine: Do you work Jocelyn, with organizations to, um, I, I’m gonna use the word coach.

Uh. Coach organizations in terms of, and, and HR leaders about understanding and evaluating [00:15:00] these types of things within their organization? Or are you, um, focused more? I would say like on the public policy side,

Jocelyn: you know, we do a little bit of both. Um, I would never tell people we can be, um, we’re not consultants.

For example. Okay. And so a company shouldn’t come to us to sort of design their HR program, what we do. Do with a number of employers is we talk about policies that can be helpful in responsive to the needs that they’re hearing, and we can talk about how those policies work. We can talk about what we know about the data and the research about the effectiveness of those policies and.

Why they often have been tapped as strategies to retain workers, to increase productivity, those sorts of things. We spend a lot of time [00:16:00] looking at data and talking to employers and looking at how policies work on the ground and hearing from workers themselves about what the needs are, what the challenges are.

And working collaboratively to figure out are there solutions to this particular crop up? Uh, so we often are in conversation with employers about, you know, here’s. What the FMLA can do. What it does require here are strategies around paid leave and what we know about what’s effective and what’s less effective.

Uh, you know, here are other ideas that employers have pursued and looked at to respond to, uh, challenges that they’re hearing from workers around. Caregiving needs and so forth. Those are the types of conversations that we have. Um, but we also are really clear, we’re advocates. We, you know, push for strong, robust policies.

We push for vigorous [00:17:00] enforcement of a law. We would always say to people, you know, if you can’t do it here, uh, experts who can help you figure some of this out, uh, because we, you know, we are not, um, uh, um, we’re not necessarily hired consultants, but we can give you a lot of ideas and research and data about what does work and what doesn’t.

Um, and I think these days in a climate where. There is a lot of retrenchment and, uh, even a narrative that when you do things that are helpful for women or people of color, that that’s a bad thing, not a good thing. Uh. What we try to do is also be clear about what does the law require there. There’s nothing wrong with being responsive to the needs of your workers, whether they’re women workers, whether they’re people of color, whether they’re women of color.

If your workers say, this is a problem, you have [00:18:00] every right to, and in fact, you should try to do everything you can to fix it. And we spend a lot of time talking about that and really encouraging employers to. Be thoughtful to be, um, uh, robust in the types of investments that they’re making in the workers because we believe it pays off in the end.

Christine: So, okay. So that helps me understand the role. So if you know, based on your experience in both government and advocacy. What would you say are the most effective, I would say, actions that employers can take today to create meaningful impacts for women in their workforce?

Jocelyn: Well, I would say a couple things.

First is whatever actions that an [00:19:00] employer takes, whether it’s to address the needs of women workers, or. Workers of color, any group of people, there needs to be a clear understanding of the employer’s commitment and belief in those investments as something that will make their workplace better. Workers do pay attention and they know when something is for show.

And because you really need it. So whatever you do, I, I would start with leadership from the top all the way down. Having the investment set aside make, making sure that managers and supervisors are trained, that there is an investment in deepening whatever the policy is as part of the culture or the organization.

Like those things matter because, uh. [00:20:00] If you have a policy that’s in name only, people will understand that it’s on the paper, but it’s not real if you have a paid leave policy. But really, you sent a signal that, uh, men ought not to take it. They won’t take it. Right, like and if you are trying to create a culture that everybody wants to believe that they have certain supports that are accessible to everybody, then you need to create the environment where that’s possible.

And that’s not simply putting a policy on paper, it’s often doing the investment and training to make sure. That everybody understands this is a commitment from the highest bubbles. We have an expectation that these things are, you know, now the policy of the organization. And we will do these things in a way to make people as successful as possible.

So I always start there. If you’re not prepared to be committed to it, don’t do. Don’t tell people you’re doing stuff and [00:21:00] then sort of half do it because yeah, you won’t yield the results. Um, and you undermine the policy overall. That’s the first thing. And then the second and third thing I would say is being responsive to the needs of your workers.

Understanding that there are a diverse group of needs, but in particular, uh, there are lots of folks who come to the table with caregiving challenges. We ought to have supports that enable them to manage those, but in a way that doesn’t undermine their ability to participate in the workforce. Whether it is, uh, taking time off if they have a sick kid or, uh, an aging parent, whether it is they have their own medical emergency, whatever it is, they ought to be able to handle it without.

Um, uh, losing sort of their place in line [00:22:00] within their workforce or, or experiencing some negative, uh, uh, result because people’s perceptions about care. Uh, I would say that’s the other thing that’s important. Um, the last thing I would say is that. For women workers, part of their experience in the workforce is also just connected to people’s attitudes about women workers, you know, or people who think women shouldn’t work or they are not good leaders, or they have attitudes about different groups of women of color, or.

You know, we live in America and America has lots of attitudes about a variety of people. Uh, but when it comes to your workplace, regardless of those attitudes, everybody ought to have the same chance to be successful. And the employer has a really important role in making sure that that’s possible. If you know your.[00:23:00]

You’re, you have a, a department that used to be all men, and now you’ve got women, you better make sure that those women have a fair chance to succeed. Uh, and employers know that better than anybody else, and they play a really critical role, the main role in driving the culture of their organization. So that’s what I say.

Employers that they have a vested interest in creating a workplace that works for folks where everybody can be successful, where everybody understands the policies and are doing their best to adhere to them so that we can yield the, they can yield the best results for not only their workers, but their business.

Christine: Don’t just check the box. Employees want to know that you are. Genuinely committed and care about their wellbeing. And this includes [00:24:00] women, women of color, women that are caregivers, all employees. So I think it’s a really good point, and it’s unfortunate that, I mean, as we look at organizational cultures, they’re evolving, but it’s unfortunate that we are still talking about supporting women at work.

Um, and really in a way that makes it equitable. I mean, at the end of the day, that’s where we are. Um, so I, in, in doing some research, I was reading about that there are 75 million working women in the us 75 million. And so, um, you all are working on this 75 million initiative, which is a national campaign.

And a call to action focused on those 75 million women in the workplace. And you know, these are, these are women that are. Powering our economy [00:25:00] that are leading families and and caregivers, and they are truly contributing to every sector. So this campaign, as I understand it, highlights the realities women face every single day, juggling work and family, their responsibilities.

So can you tell us more about this 75 million initiative? First and foremost, let’s learn more about that.

Jocelyn: Absolutely. And your, your description of it was right on target. Uh, we along with, um. Some terrific partners who work on women’s employment issues, the National Women’s Law Center, equal Rights Advocates, uh, black Women’s Round Table, uh, justice for Migrant Women, the breadth and depth of, uh, organizations who work on women’s employment issues and have done so for a long time.

Uh, we came together really focused [00:26:00] on drilling down on what are the things that we think we can do to lift up policies and strategies that invest in women workers and support them in the way that they need to be supported at a moment when our economy is stressed. And families are stressed, and women’s participation is so critical to the economic stability of their families and also our economy overall.

We know that when you invest in women workers, not only do you support their families, but you help grow our company. And we wanted to focus squarely on what are those solutions, what are things that we know can work, and to lift them up in a moment when a lot of those solutions and the idea of investing in women workers is quite honestly under attack.

And this narrative [00:27:00] that, uh, women shouldn’t work or we should constrain their choices, we should limit their opportunities, or they don’t belong in certain spaces. We don’t have to pay attention to a lot of the issues that have fueled our organizations for decades. We wanted to be clear. And unequivocal that if women want to participate in the economy, we ought to make it possible.

We ought to make it fair. We ought to invest in them because not only are they valuable as workers, but they’re also valuable to their families in our economy. Uh, so that’s how we started. Um, uh, we. Also focused, in particular on the attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion, because we know that over the decades, one of the.

Strategies that’s been deployed to ensure that we are focusing on women and women of color, that we are creating spaces that are fair and equitable [00:28:00] often have been done pursuant to a broader strategy around diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that when you push back on it, that what you’re doing is undermining a lot of those policies and strategies that have been deployed, whether it is making sure that.

Certain careers are open to women, whether it’s investing in young people to expose them to stem, like all the strategies that have de been deployed over years to expand opportunity for women in the workplace. Many of those strategies are now under attack. Uh, so we saw it not only an opportunity, but we thought it was vital.

Vital to come together. 75 million workers is no joke. They’re serious. And we need them supported as much as possible if we’re gonna have a strong economy. So that’s why we came together. Um, and that’s why we’ve been spending a lot of time talking about the different solutions that we think are working and that could work.

And we’re pushing back in [00:29:00] places where, uh, some of the progress that we’ve seen is now, um, uh, being undermined or eliminated all together.

Christine: Well, I love this campaign, 75 million initiative. Um, I think it just reinforces this is no small population that we are talking about, uh, in the workplace. So from your experience, which, uh, which workplace policies.

Can have an impact on results or outcomes for women and families versus those that, I mean, sure they probably have good intentions, but really they’re not designed to have an impact.

Jocelyn: Right. That it’s a, that’s a great question. I, you know, I would focus on and lift up policies that do one of two things.

One is to be very specific in responding to the fact that women are far more likely to be caregivers. [00:30:00] So things like paid family and medical leave, access to paid sick days, those sorts of. Policies have been, have been proven to be enormously helpful for women and related policies around making sure that women aren’t.

Treated unfairly because they have caregiving responsibilities. Things like pregnancy discrimination policies, things that are very specific in recognizing that women are more likely to be caregivers, but we wanna make sure that they are not be treated unfairly because of those responsibilities. The flip side is policies that sometimes are sort of too loose to be specific in a lot of workplaces.

To the sense that they have paid leave or paid family leave, that’s different than sometimes paid time off. Because sometimes with just general PTO type policies, there is [00:31:00] enormous, um, not flexibility, but there’s so, there’s so loose that. There’s not precision in making sure that people can actually use those policies in the way that they need it.

So if somebody is penalized because. What they wanna do is take leave for care as opposed to some other reason. Then they’re not gonna make use of a policy like that because there’s, there’s not enough precision, there’s not enough detail to make it clear that this policy is supposed to be used for, and can be used for family caregiving.

It can be used if you, you have to take your kid to a doctor’s appointment. You wanna make sure that people are clear about. How this policy can be used. And so sometimes, unless you’re act actually very precise, the sort of what you think is flexibility sometimes. Can end up [00:32:00] backfiring if people don’t understand.

Yes, the flexibility can be used for these types of purposes, so I, I would always encourage an employer to be, it goes back to the point we were discussing about training. I. And making sure that people understand that this is how this policy is supposed to be used,

Christine: right?

Jocelyn: This is what we’re supposed to be able to do.

I think the other thing I would say about things that have been most effective is to the extent that employers are focused on equal pet. Looking at your pay practices, looking at how people are paid and whether or not there are a whole variety of people doing the same thing, but they’re paid very different things.

Things like making sure that people don’t get penalized because they talk about their pay, pay transparency, salary. You looking at salary history to make sure you’re not carrying over discriminatory practices from another employer. Those things have worked. And be effective. And I would always encourage employers, um, to look [00:33:00] in their own practices, to do regular audits, to look, to make sure that, um, there’s as much transparency as possible.

Um, and at least they’re paying attention to, uh, pay disparities within their, their, um. Their workplace, not only around race, but also around gender and race. Right. Like the, because we know the pay disparities are different for white women and black women and Latinas and A API women. I think the area of pay and area of care, there’s been enormous progress when employers are intentional about trying to drive change.

Christine: Those are, are two, I think very valuable and, and great examples. I wanna shift our focus a little bit because obviously there is growing focus on maternal health and you know, yes, organizations have FMLA and other, um, benefits and policies we’re, we were just [00:34:00] talking about. But I don’t wanna focus on it as a, um.

As a, I wanna focus it as a, uh, the outcomes aspect of maternal health. And we know, uh, that there are pretty significant racial disparities and many of the complications that are happening with maternal health, um, can be preventable. So when we think about maternal health. Um, the aspects that are overlooked, um, it affects retention, productivity, and long-term healthcare costs, right?

So if we have, you know, head of HR CHRO, they’re thinking about their talent strategy, they’re listening in. Um, how can employers ad address and really improved maternal health outcomes? And what’s the role that an organization should play in looking at maternal health outcomes?

Jocelyn: Well, you’re right to [00:35:00] surface this question.

I think of this issue as, um, really an employer investing in a worker to over a period of years, you know, employer, a worker may start, they may be young person, and then they get married. They decide to have a kid. They then have childcare needs and so forth. You know, people don’t live single issue wise and they don’t live, um, single moment wise.

They, their wives are on a continuum. And I think, uh, it’s employ important for employers to think of it that way as well. And so, as a result, maternal health matters. It matters in terms of their ability to have healthy pregnancies and then, um, have healthy. Kids and healthy, um, uh, families. So for [00:36:00] us, we talk a lot about what are the different interventions and investments that are critical along that continuum, starting in pregnancy, making sure that.

Employers are adhering to the legal requirements in terms of minimizing things like pregnancy discrimination, but also, uh, allowing for accommodations. Uh, we have the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act that is designed to, uh, support pregnant workers who may need different sorts of com accommodations. Um, we know that, uh, there are enormous racial disparities, uh, in, uh.

Uh, maternal health and, uh, maternal morbidity for lack of a better term. And, uh, that black women and black moms in particular are two to three times more likely to die, um, from pregnancy related, uh, conditions than white women. [00:37:00] Um, and that we have a maternal health crisis overall. Um, so there are things that we can do and employers can do to make sure that their health plans that they offer.

Cover the range of services that, uh, pregnant workers need, whether it’s prenatal, postpartum care, access to mental health services, uh, which is a enormous, um, issue for many pregnant. Um. Uh, pregnant women, uh, the types of services that we know help to improve maternal out health outcomes like doula services and things of that nature.

Um, you know, particularly if workers are low income, where they may not have, uh, access to those sorts of services, um, covered by their insurance, or if there’s a way for employers to supplement what is available, um, even, you know. Going back to our conversation about paid leave and parental leave that is [00:38:00] available not only during pregnancy and immediately after birth, but recognize that kids have to be taken to the doctor for appointments and things of that nature.

Making sure that the, the, um, uh, insurance and medical options that an employer offers is a, are a set of options that actually support maternal health.

Christine: Like those should be the bare minimum, right?

Jocelyn: Those should be the bare minimum. And I think, you know, and understanding, um, that equitable healthcare is a workplace issue and a, a lot of times I think employers, not unlike other people, we, we stay stuck in our silos.

And we say, well, this is a work issue, but that’s a family issue. That’s a health issue. That’s a, you know, transportation like, and I get it. We all wanna stay in our [00:39:00] lanes, but. You. As I said earlier, you take your workers as you find them, and your workers come to you with work needs in terms of skills and strengths and qualifications.

But they’re people. They have care needs, they have their own health needs. They have lots of things going on. So it’s important, I think, for employers and particularly HR folks to have an understanding of that and to think about what’s in, what’s in my realm. That I can do to support these folks. And I think being really thoughtful about what are the benefits we’re offering.

Does our health insurance actually really respond to the needs of folks? Those sorts of things are really critical, um, for workers, uh, at any point, part, but particularly in a world where we have such poor maternal health outcomes. And we need to be thoughtful about what are the investments, what are the [00:40:00] policies that we know yield results.

And, and what we do know is when you’re intentional, when you make sure that people have access to the breadth and depth of healthcare services, when they have early prenatal care, when they have regular visits, when they are able to do those sets of things, they actually do better. Um, and, and, uh, it’s important I think for employers to make that investment as well.

Christine: So anyone that’s listening in, that was just your business case for advancing gender equity, reproductive health access. So if, if you do that, you know you are on a better path to retention, engagement, and, and overall performance and longevity. Of employees in your workplace. Um, Jocelyn, I wanna thank you for sharing insights about the national partnerships work to improve the [00:41:00] lives of women and families.

I think the work that you’re doing is important, so important and has a real impact on how we support women in the workplace, which aligns quite nicely to what we do here at WebMD Health Services as well. And I hope today’s conversation. Leaves, those that are truly de designing benefits and policies with a deeper understanding of what truly matters in improving maternal health and outcomes for women and families.

And understand and recognize that you need to ask your employees what their needs are so that you can make sure that you are designing the right programs and policies for your people. So I actually have one more question. To ask you, Jocelyn, and I ask all guests. So as someone who is actively focused on improving the lives of women and families, I now wanna make this about you.

Mm-hmm. So what is one [00:42:00] small shift, personally or professionally, that has made the biggest difference in Jocelyn’s wellbeing?

Jocelyn: Well, I think for me, I had. To give myself permission not to fix everything. And I think that oftentimes, um, we think that we have to solve all the problems

Christine: mm-hmm.

Jocelyn: All the time and put ourselves last.

And, uh, I, I think that lots of women do that and do and think that we’re doing the right thing. That we’re selfless we’re, you know, we’re everybody else’s savior and that we don’t have to focus on ourselves. And I had to spend a lot of time getting myself out of that mindset [00:43:00] and focusing more on what I could do and not trying to be the solution for everybody and everything.

Uh, because it’s not possible to do that. It’s exhausting and you’ll always feel like you’re failing. And I had to focus on, here’s the thing I can do or the set of things I can do, and then I just have to let the other stuff go and be okay with that. And I won’t say that I’m always disciplined about it, but often.

What keeps me going is my ability to refocus and say, let me just focus on what I can do and accept that, you know, I can be successful here and there may be a, a whole bunch of other things I can’t do. Uh, but I can’t be all things to all people [00:44:00] and I’m not indestructible you are. Right. Um, and so that I find I have to say that to myself.

Pretty regularly, but when I do it, I’m better. Um, I’m better at my job. I’m better in terms of just my mindset, um, and I’m better for the people around me. Um, but I, you know, I would not be honest and said, I, I sort of fixed it. I did, you know, it’s a, it’s a work in progress and I think it’s true for many of us, but I know it’s true for me.

Um, but it’s, you know, it’s a practice and I’m trying to be better at it. I’m better at it today than I was when I first started working and was more of a workaholic maybe than I’m now. Um, but you know, it’s a discipline.

Christine: Well, I think that is an outstanding lesson that we all could probably, [00:45:00] uh, practice and repeat to ourselves.

We can’t be all things to all people. Um, so we probably could spend a whole podcast drilling on that and, and learning from some of the insights, uh, that you’ve experienced to do that. But I think that is a great one, and it’s so important that we focus on our wellbeing and, and the things that we can do.

And sometimes we do have to let. The thing, you know, let things go and, and you know, share that responsibility for sure. So that was a great one. Probably the best one so far, Jocelyn.

Jocelyn: Well, thank you.

Christine: Well, I wanna thank you, Jocelyn, for being my guest today on the HR Scoop. And if anyone wants to learn more about the national partnership, visit their website, national partnership.org.

Thank you for listening to today’s episode of the HR Scoop. Thank you, Jocelyn.

Jocelyn: Thank you Christine. So great to be here. Uh, I’ll be in conversation with you anytime.

Christine: Oh, thank you.

How can employers truly improve the lived experiences of women and families, moving beyond conversation and embedding equity into workplace culture? 

With 75 million women participating in the U.S. workforce, the stakes are high, not just for families, but for the economy itself.  

“Workers know when something is for show.” 

This conversation covers: 

• • How pay equity audits and transparency drive accountability.
  • The difference between flexible policies and effective, usable ones.
  • Why caregiving support (paid leave, sick days, accommodations) is foundational.
  • Why leadership commitment—not just written policy—determines impact.