Dorie Clark from Harvard Business Review | Insights on Strategy, Communication, and Culture

Andrea: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the HR scoop today. I have Dori Clark with me and I am so excited because Dori has been named three times as one of the top 50 business thinkers in the world by thinkers 50. She is a keynote speaker and teaches executive education at Columbia business school. You might’ve heard of it.

She is also the wall street. Journal, bestselling author of the long game, entrepreneurial, you reinventing you and standout, which was named number one leadership book of the year by Inc magazine. Also a former presidential campaign spokeswoman. She writes frequently for the Harvard. Business review, which you’ve probably also heard of.

So thank you for joining us here today, Dori.

Dorie: Kendra, thank you. So glad to be .

Andrea: Yeah. So, I mean, that was a mouthful and what a delight to have you join us with all of your experience and you’ve really done several different things. So I’m very excited for what you [00:01:00] can bring to the audience.

And so I guess just to jump right in, you know, you have been recognized as one of the top business thinkers and communication coaches. In the world. So from kind of that perspective, how do you think effective communication impacts employee well being in an organization? We’ll just start with a really softball.

That’s right. That’s right. Well, you know, You mentioned when you were reading my bio that, uh, I’m a former, uh, political spokesperson. I worked on presidential campaigns, governor’s races, things like that. And one of the things that really gets drilled into you in the world of politics, there’s a saying, that a voter needs to hear your name seven times before they’ll even remember your name, much less consider voting for you.

And I feel like that was actually really useful training, because when it comes to the corporate world, we tend to make so many assumptions as [00:02:00] leaders that, you know, Oh, well, you know, I said it. I told them and it feels very real and very legitimate to you. But the problem is that we have to repeat things a lot more than you might think.

Um, in different formats, in different ways, in order for a message to really get across and get through. And that, Certainly gets talked about when it comes to things like leadership strategy, but it’s also true when it comes to things like employee well being, you know, if we, if we’re thinking about how do we legitimately create psychologically safe workplaces or things like that, um, we need to be talking about and repeating things and, uh, you know, letting people know about resources or praising people who raise difficult topics and not killing the messenger and doing it over and over again and saying, Oh, good job for bringing this to our attention.

Good job for raising this important [00:03:00] consideration. And that’s how behavior gets ingrained. But we have to do it a lot more than we think that we do.

That is so true. And I know for myself and a lot of other HR people out there, we worry a lot about oversaturating the inbox. And so I do think there is a balance there because you have to say it, say it again.

Say it again and then say that you said it and then maybe say it again, but it can’t just be email forward another email, send another email, you know, so I think there is a lot of value in repeating it, but also finding different modes and methods of getting that same message across. Would you, would you agree?

Dorie: Absolutely. Yeah, you’re, you’re exactly right. If people are presented with the same stimuli over and over again, eventually they learn to block it out. Oh, that’s not important. Oh, I’ve seen that before. It just, it doesn’t feel like new news, so to speak. And so it just becomes part of the, the [00:04:00] wallpaper or something.

And that’s not going to be very helpful. But if you really want a message to get across, it’s thinking about modalities. Like if you’re in politics, You are reaching people because you have television ads, you have radio ads, you have billboards, you have bumper stickers, you have yard signs, you have, uh, people knocking on doors, you have people making phone calls, you know, those are all the ways that a candidate would be communicating.

And similarly for HR professionals, it’s, you know, sure it’s email. That’s a nice easy one. But maybe it’s emails from you, maybe it’s emails from, uh, functional area leaders so that they’re having the message. Maybe it’s, uh, making sure that other people are saying things in all hands meetings. Maybe it’s, uh, tabling in the lobby.

Maybe it’s, you know, putting Putting up the proverbial banner, maybe it’s having a lunch and learn. I mean, you know, whatever it is, uh, it probably has, uh, you know, whatever the topic is probably suggests how it should be approached, [00:05:00] but you do want to reach people in different ways. Um, because you, you’re never sure what’s going to get through and you’ve got to get them in, in different ways.

So it feels like something they need to keep paying attention to.

Andrea: That’s right. And that’s making me think of. I don’t know, really prioritizing what you’re putting all this effort into because what I think you’re not saying is everything that you send needs to go 12 different ways. Here we’re talking about the really important things or the benefits that you are prioritizing and really supporting as an organization.

So first you have to define and decide what those things are and then create a plan on how to really over communicate it out.

Dorie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are, there are plenty of things that HR does that are nice to have and it’s great for employees to know about them and people would probably like them and benefit from them.

Great. Um, but you, you can’t saturate [00:06:00] everything. That’s exactly right. And so we have to do this kind of early triage about what is strategically important. You know, if, if there’s, if over the next quarter, there’s only three messages. That we could guarantee that everybody knows but we can guarantee that people would know them You know, what what would they be and uh and and making people kind of vote essentially to say?

Oh, you know this this is the thing um that feels kind of mandatory, um, that, that can really help reorient how we approach things.

Andrea: I like that. And I think also you can take a spin on it on things that aren’t just programmatic. And here, what I’m thinking about is recognition, because I think recognition would be a great candidate for this kind of creative outlet in different.

Modes and methodologies, because you could have a card, a team meeting and all hands. You could use your chat. You could have a standalone function gift cards. [00:07:00] I mean, we’ve seen a lot, right? But one of my favorite things that I have seen that communicated a totally different way was during one of our town halls, we gave each major department.

I think it was 90 seconds and maybe it was two minutes, but it was a short time where they could create a video, a deck, anything they wanted to really highlight the accomplishments of their team since the last town hall. And the creativity was amazing. And I remember some of those way more than probably just, you know, We got a thank you via email and the smiles and the people got to participate in it.

So I think another important component might be who’s participating, that it’s not just one group pushing the same thing out a bunch of different ways.

Dorie: Yeah, that’s so great. I love that. I think that’s a perfect example.

Andrea: So a minute ago you mentioned strategic importance, so I want to go back to [00:08:00] strategy because being a strategic thinker is a phrase I hear a lot, but I don’t typically see a lot of tactical information or hear people tell you how to go about it.

And so in your book, The Long Game, you talk about strategic thinking for long term success. So I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that and maybe if you have any ideas of how HR leaders could adopt this kind of approach to sustain engagement, development, things like that.

Dorie: Yeah. Thank you, Andrea.

So I think you raise a really important point, which is that, you know, everybody theoretically loves strategic thinking, and this is something that gets a lot of lip service, you know, there’s, there’s not really an anti strategic thinking, uh, constituency, uh, but, but of course the problem is that lots of people, uh, pay homage to it, but don’t really do it, and I think part of it is that we get a little bit tripped up sometimes, because I think there’s an [00:09:00] assumption that Strategic thinking means something very fancy, very complicated.

We’ve got to have graphs, we’ve got to have retreats, we’ve got to have charts. And I really want to demystify this a little bit because the truth is I don’t think of strategic thinking as a process so much as I think of it as a lens. Um, it’s, it’s not necessarily doing more work than you would be doing otherwise.

It’s just a question. Of looking at the world in a slightly different way. And so I, the lens that I like to suggest that people put on is to say to themselves, what can I do today that would make tomorrow better and easier? And if you can just consistently get in the habit of asking that question, it makes a lot of things downstream better.

I mean, in, in a, in a literal, uh, tactical sense for your own life. It’s saying like, okay, [00:10:00] I need to bring some documents to the office tomorrow, I don’t want to forget them, I might forget them, so I am going to put them next to my keys tonight, so that I know that I won’t forget it tomorrow. That’s a simple ten second thing.

But it solves a lot of downstream problems. And I think similarly in the work world, we can be asking ourselves those same questions related to our own careers and our own career development, uh, related to our people and making sure that we’re helping them build out a good career path and, uh, that, that we’re doing the things that we need to be doing for the organization, etc.

Andrea: I think I just heard the procrastinators collectively groan, but why do it tonight if we can do it tomorrow? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, you’re 100 percent right. Of course. I mean, setting yourself up for success also reduces your stress and, you know, helps you [00:11:00] have an easier time to get going in the morning, which who doesn’t want that?

So speaking about career paths and growth, I think that is another topic that. HR leaders in particular here and get asked about and we’re all trying to help in whatever way we can. But could you explain the concept of career lattices replacing ladders and how do you see that shift impacting employees and development?

Dorie: Sure. So this is, this is a concept that has been around for about 20 years. I’m, I’m not, I’m not the originator of it. I believe it comes from the center for adult and experiential education. And then Deloitte, uh, really popularized it a lot as well. I find it to be a useful framework in the sense that so often I think employee expectations are a little bit Um, mismatched sometimes, because the, the truth is, you know, the, the [00:12:00] things that, that all of us kind of, kind of heard coming up, uh, the situation changed a lot, uh, certainly in the last 20 or 30 years, and, and really, really in the last, you know, 10 or 15 since the, uh, since the Great Recession in 2008, where we have to really just be Face and recognize that the the goal of our career development needs to it needs to be in our hands Right.

It is no longer an escalator that you board At college and then it just sort of magically takes you up as long as you don’t do it Don’t do something stupid or heinous, like, there’s no escalator anymore, um, and things don’t just automatically happen, um, it’s more like stairs, and you can very easily get stuck on a certain set of stairs if you’re just expecting them to be rising, and so we have to exert a little bit more.

[00:13:00] agency. Uh, and you know, I’m not saying this is a good or a bad thing. There’s pluses and minuses to all of this. The plus is that you get to be a lot more creative. Things are not lockstep, so you have a lot more opportunity to be like, Oh, that looks interesting. Maybe I’ll do that. And You know, as long as you can make a decent case for yourself, oftentimes you will totally be permitted to do whatever that is.

Um, but it is more like a lattice, where you think about a framework and like, you’re climbing, you’re like, you’re like on, on monkey bars, you know, going places. Uh, so I think that what we have to recognize is that, You need to be exerting agency and it can feel a little tricky because part, part of it is that we have to be in charge of being creative enough to come up with a vision of what we want to do and where we want to go.

Um, it may not be linear, it may not be like, oh, you know, march, marching in terms of this, uh, you know, promotion, promotion, promotion. Some of these things may be a little bit off to the [00:14:00] side or lateral or whatever, But you have the ability to craft something really legitimately interesting that is a career that is unique to you and your strengths and things that you dig.

And that’s, that’s kind of, that’s kind of exciting, actually, if we Embrace it and recognize it and lean into the possibilities that it creates.

Andrea: I agree with you. I think the landscape of how people grow professionally throughout their career is a whole new thing than it used to be. I mean, there are micro learnings, there are side gigs, there are, I mean, jobs that didn’t even exist two years ago that people are doing and doing well.

And what I like to remind My managers, but really the employees directly is that no one is going to hand you your job path and the promotions on your schedule because it’s got to be self driven. I agree with you. It’s the path is endless. I mean, there are so many ways a [00:15:00] person could take their career and it isn’t just ABC.

Now you’re a manager. Now you’re a middle manager and either you retire there or you keep growing. I mean, very few people do that. Yeah. Anymore. And I think that’s probably for the better because more interesting to follow what you actually want to do, but the mindset I’m not sure has caught up yet. Are you seeing that?

Are you seeing people more willing to explore things or are we kind of in between?

Dorie: I think it still is a little bit in between. I mean, it’s, it’s really interesting because, um, you know, I actually get called in as a speaker a lot by organizations and. Yeah. There’s plenty of things that I speak on, you know, some of it’s strategy based.

If the topic is kind of more career and career development based, oftentimes, like a not insubstantial amount of the time, uh, the mandate from the company is, okay, you know, help us out. Um, we want you. to basically be the messenger [00:16:00] to help remind employees that things are not going to magically happen.

They need to make them happen. And I’m like, okay, great. Because again, pros and cons to both scenarios, to both ways that things, you know, are done or used to be done. But what is absolutely critical is. is that employer and employee have to be on the same page. If they have different expectations, no one’s going to be happy and no one is going to be successful.

You know, the employees are going to feel like, well, I was promised X and it didn’t happen. And the employer is going to be like, why are these people just like sitting there? Like, what’s up with that? Um, so we’ve got to, we’ve got to make sure that people understand what the new implicit contract of the workplace is.

And once they get it, then there’s a lot of opportunities available. But, but yes, I think that information really, um, needs to continue to be disseminated so that, so that we can all have a good level playing field.

Andrea: Agreed. And it, [00:17:00] I’ve seen certainly the biggest uptick in those unmet quote promises just mysteriously right when the former manager left the organization and then all these promises had been made.

So that’s a tricky one too. Um, so even better to be on the same page from a company level and not just specific manager to direct employee

Dorie: for sure.

Andrea: Another thing that I think seems tied to this, you know, we’ve talked before on this show about employee branding, like self branding, even within a company, not because you’re going to go start your own social media page, although that’s what you want to do.

Fine. Uh, but I’m curious, How you think employees can reinvent themselves while within an organization or if they are trying to do something different? Is there an employee branding piece to that?

Dorie: Yeah, you’re, you’re touching on something really important, Andrea. I mean, my first book actually was called Reinventing You, so I’ve spent a lot of time [00:18:00] Thinking about questions of professional reinvention.

And, you know, sometimes people assume that it has to be a super big change. Oh, like I’m changing industries or, oh, I’m retiring. And so, I mean, of course you need to reinvent yourself in those circumstances. But one of the things that I’ve found, which I think is often overlooked to people’s detriment is that there’s A lot of reinvention that actually needs to be done, even if you are in the same company, and even if you were in a relatively similar role, because the truth is you came in to the company and.

If you have stayed there more than a few years, you have learned, you have grown, you know how to do a heck of a lot more than you did at the outset, um, you’re a different person. But people are not thinking of you that way because, you know, they, they met you, whatever, five years ago, and so they still think of you with that same skill set.

Especially if you came in as a [00:19:00] younger employee, it’s like, Oh, well, she’s a nice kid, you know, and so, um, being thoughtful about managing your, your brand and just making sure that people get it. I mean, it can be things just really simple, tactical things that are useful. Like actually having an answer in your back pocket when people say, Hey, what have you been up to?

People will always ask you some variation of that question. And a lot of people blow it and they just like, Oh, I saw a good movie or something, but instead, if you actually have. A relevant answer that highlights something. Oh, you know, I’ve just been taking a new class because I’m studying for my MBA Or oh, you know, I just volunteered to lead the blah blah blah committee because i’m really interested in moving xyz forward Just an answer like that accomplishes the same thing.

It keeps the conversation moving, but it just, it shows another side of you that when you reinforce it over time, really helps people see you in a new, more mature, [00:20:00] more developed way, which reflects reality.

Andrea: Now that is strategic. We’re talking about being strategic. There is a great tip. It’s Amen. Taking those opportunities to not just say, Oh, I’m, I’ve been busy.

You know, how many times is that the default answer? Like it’s not the busy Olympics. Tell me something interesting. Ha ha.

Dorie: That’s right. Um,

Andrea: yeah. And I agree with you on, especially for those who are more junior in their career or brand new to an organization or who have just moved into a new role. I think.

You do learn so much, but you never really outgrow that newer level, unless you are promoting and showing yourself, which takes courage. And yeah, if there’s imposter syndrome, you know, that’s something you can work through and fake it till you make it. Uh, but that is a really good reminder also that you have to be your own advocate.

Dorie: Absolutely.

Andrea: So one thing I [00:21:00] love about your research is that it highlights the importance of employees feeling seen, heard, valued, and encouraged. And I feel like this is just unequivocally true. It is so, so important for humans in general to feel those things. So, So would you be able to share some practical ways, uh, HR leaders could cultivate that kind of culture, maybe in person, maybe hybrid or remote?

I mean, I think we’re all feeling a little lost in how to actually make that happen for people.

Dorie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I think that. What is important, and this is drawing, uh, your question is drawing in part on a Harvard Business Review article that I, uh, wrote last year with Alexis Redding talking about this.

And, uh, One of the points that we made is, you know, these are kind of foundational principles. It’s not that any of this is, is somehow new. Oh, you need check GPD to do it or something [00:22:00] like that. Like, you know, it’s, you know, these are very basic things, but they’re things that Get overlooked sometimes in the hurly burly and we have to go back to first principles and the good news Is that I think for most hr professionals there is a reason they are in this profession Which is that they legitimately care about and are interested in people And so I think this is a good reminder like, okay, let’s let’s focus on that.

Like we know everyone’s busy We know everyone’s running around but actually taking the time to You know just you know interact with people and ask basic questions so that, you know, I mean, again, depending on the size of the organization or what have you, like, do you know everyone’s name? Uh, do you know little things about them so that you can ask, you know, how was that vacation?

Or, you know, how’s, how’s your doggy doing after its surgery? Or, you know, whatever it is, is just an [00:23:00] acknowledgment to people that. They are not, uh, they are not interchangeable. It’s, you know, when it comes to feeling heard and valued, it’s a little bit, um, you know, I won’t say more complicated per se, but it’s, it’s the same sort of fundamental thing.

I mean, part of it is about, as a person, do you know them and respect them? Part of it is about, as a professional, do you know them and respect them? And so it means, you know, things that are kind of, honestly, just good organizational hygiene. If you claim, if your organization claims, we want your feedback, we want your input, do you actually ever do anything with it?

Is there, is there a process? Like, is there a way that you acknowledge to people that, you know, yes, we, we did hear that feedback. We are looking into it. We are studying it or whatever it is. Those are the things that if they don’t get done, people end up feeling demoralized or tricked in some way. But if, if you actually let [00:24:00] them know.

No, you know, we, we meant it. We were telling the truth here. Um, that goes a long way. Whether or not you actually end up implementing the thing, just understanding, people understanding that you are taking it seriously is something that’s quite powerful.

Andrea: Yeah, it There’s ever someone remote in there. I know they have a pet.

I’m like, can I see your dog? Can I see your cat? I love that. People or baby or whatever. I mean, but it’s, yeah, it’s saying you’re a person and I see you. And also just, I think even the preface of that is that you’re regularly meeting and you’re prioritizing having that one on one time. Things come up, right?

But you have to reschedule. You have to be consistent. And the part that maybe people are forgetting is that you can take notes. If you don’t have to just completely bank on your memory here, get a OneNote, open a draft email, keep a running list [00:25:00] of who likes what and what they’re doing. Please, actually, please don’t rely on your memory.

That’s a terrible idea.

Dorie: Yeah. It’s, it’s so, it’s so true. I mean, you know, even thinking about things like, um, you know, how do you, how do you thank someone? How do you reward someone or, or what have you? Like, it’s. You know, it might be a nice idea to give people, um, you know, Oh, great, good job. You give them a bottle of wine.

But, but then, you know, the person is like, no, I’m Muslim. You know, it’s like, Oh, no, that’s not, that’s not very fun. Uh, if, if you give them a thing, they can’t, they can’t drink, you know, or like, Oh, you give them a box of chocolates and, and they hate chocolates. It’s, it’s, it’s like. It sort of defeats the purpose, because even if you’re giving them something that is nice in general, it’s not that nice in specific if it doesn’t work for them.

And so, just remembering like, oh, if they have a brand of ginger ale they like, or [00:26:00] something, and you give them that, it’s ten times more meaningful than, you know, just sort of the standard off the shelf.

Andrea: Yeah. And probably feels even worse if they give you something that you’ve told them before that you don’t like, because in your effort to see them and know them is absolutely backfiring on you.

Dorie: Yeah. Um,

Andrea: another thing that I found that really works, if anybody just needs a tip, it’s probably not new. Uh, but you know, you have the, the courteous, hi, you know, how are you? Good. Good. How are you? But it’s the second, how are you? Right? It’s like, how are you? Good. Good. No, really. How are you? And the barrier that breaks through is shocking.

I mean, it’s the exact same question, but people know you mean it and that it’s not just the, you know, courteous kind of meet and greet. And people I have found will open up right away if, if you have a relationship, of course, but you know, it’s the second, like the, no, really, how are you? So no one’s tried that.

I’d [00:27:00] recommend just giving that a go.

Dorie: That’s great. I love that.

Andrea: Yeah. So you mentioned, you know, big companies, I know you’ve worked with major companies like Google and Microsoft. Are there any key insights you’ve learned from, you know, those behemoth organizations about fostering wellbeing that maybe were especially.

Cool, interesting, or even something that could be applied to smaller companies that don’t have that kind of staffing power.

Dorie: Yeah. Well, you know, I think. I mean, you know, Microsoft and Google both in many ways do a great job. But I think also a frame that’s important to kind of name and sometimes push back on is that I think oftentimes people feel like money and resources are able to buy a certain level of, you know, commitment or results or esprit de corps.

And It’s really it’s really not [00:28:00] true. Um, I mean Certainly if you are a well resourced organization and you are smart about how you’re deploying those resources That’s marvelous. But um, but it’s also true that If we think about what makes for a really motivated Cohesive organization it is not the presence or absence of organic snacks You know, like that’s that’s not the thing Um, it’s about It’s about having teams of people that treat you respectfully and really make an effort to get to know you and to try to look out for you in some way.

And, um, you know, I mean, just, just as an example, you know, like, you know, I’m certainly not a perfect boss, but I, I try to walk the talk. And so I’m, I’m thinking even just today, My, uh, chief of staff is taking a, a big vacation, uh, next month. He’s going to Japan for, you know, ten [00:29:00] days. He’s always wanted to go to Japan.

And so, I tried to think, you know, so, I mean, for months I’ve been like, you know, when I see a video about like, uh, travel things in Japan or interesting stuff, I mean, I’ve been sending him stuff, uh, resources. But I also was thinking like, alright, you’re going to Japan, you need some money, right? So, I actually strategized with him.

I came up with an idea. About a, uh, essentially a service he could offer on the side. And then I publicized it in my email newsletter today so that I could, you know, hopefully gin up some customers for him so that he could earn some extra money. And he’s already, uh, he’s already booked like, I think, 1, 500 worth of, uh, you know, a little side side gig thing, uh, which, you know, makes it makes a difference.

That’ll, that’ll buy a few nights in a, in a nice hotel in Japan. So, uh, I’m, I’m just trying to. Find those ways, but it’s it’s not something that you have to be working in a large organization to do. It’s just about A level of, [00:30:00] um, awareness and care and trying to, trying to look for ways to help grow your employees and make, make things nicer for your employees, uh, which creates the virtuous circle that we all want.

Andrea: You really are walking the talk. That is, that is very kind of you. And I hope he gets all the clients he wants, but not too many. Cause he still needs to go enjoy his time. That’s right. You’re right. I mean, I think a lot of times we. We believe just because a company is big that they’ve got it all figured out.

I know a lot of really big companies that most certainly do not have it all figured out. And the truth is it just completely varies based on your direct manager. The people you work with every day and how much communication and care there is an organization. So you can throw money at that. You can throw resources at that, but if you feel really supported and lifted up by your manager, if you’re at a startup, a nonprofit [00:31:00] or a fortune 500 company, doesn’t matter.

I think from at the end of the day. So that is, is good. And maybe that’s where we should as HR professionals, wellness people, like just really focus on helping curate that manager employee connection and doing everything we can for those micro engagements versus needing a big, To do, uh, to point towards, Oh, look, it’s culture.

Dorie: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrea: Great. Well, it has been so amazing having you. I can’t believe our time has just flown by. Uh, but before I let you go, I have to ask you my favorite question, which I ask all of our guests is if you would share something with us that most people don’t know about you.

Dorie: Oh my goodness. Well, I will, I will say, uh, and you know, as we’re having this conversation, you can probably make out a little, a little outline back here.

Uh, I, I am a big cat [00:32:00] person and I have a couple, a couple of cats now, but I will say, I like cats so much that, uh, when I was a little kid, uh, at, at our peak, because I lived in this kind of rural area. So we kept getting stray cats that came up and then I would insist that we keep them. So at our peak, we had 10 cats, uh, which was, uh, honestly, amazing.

And, uh, when I was little, I actually got in trouble with my art teacher because I kept wanting to draw people as cats. And she’s like, no, make them people. And I’m like, why? Yeah, I kept I kept giving everyone your little pointy ears in the tail.

Andrea: Oh, my gosh, I love it. I love it. I love all the furry animals.

So Animal lovers. That’s amazing. Yeah. Well, I know you don’t have ten, but maybe one day. One day you will again.

Dorie: That’s right. That’s right. I’m trying to, uh, I’m trying to keep, um, keep the numbers down to, uh, to something that seems, seems reasonable. But I have to say, you know, if I, uh, if I [00:33:00] win the lottery, we’re going back to ten.

Andrea: There will be signs. That’s what you’re saying. There will be signs if you win the lottery.

Dorie: That’s right. You know, I, if, once, once you have multiple wings in your house, I’m like, you deserve 10 Gats.

Andrea: Yeah. Fair. Fair. I’m, I’m on board. Can’t wait. I can’t wait for that to happen for you.

Dorie: Thank you. Thank you.

Andrea: Okay. Well, thank you again so much for joining us and to everybody out there. We’ll see you next time.