Dr. Patricia Garbarek and Dr. Katina Sawyer from WorkerBeeing | Practical Steps for Workplace Wellness Success

Andrea: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the HR scoop, my favorite podcast. And today I have two amazing guests with us. I have Katina Sawyer and Patricia Grabarek, who are co founders of worker being and authors of leading for wellness, which comes out March 25th, 2025. I am so happy to have you both. And I think it’s going to be a really great conversation.

So thanks for joining us. Thank you. We’re excited. Yeah. Thank you for having us. Yeah. So I want to start off with worker being is that it’s a really cute name, but could you tell us maybe what it is, what inspired you to come together and kind of your journey there? Maybe just a little background.

Patricia: Of course.

So worker being was started by Katina and I actually, the idea kind of popped into our heads when we’re at a friend’s wedding. So Katina and I are. Buddies, best friends from grad school. And we were [00:01:00] lamenting the fact that workplace wellness is just not handled well in organizations. Katina went the academic route.

So she’s been doing research and she sees that people are not leveraging the research the way that they should. There’s kind of a, a gap between the research that’s being done and what organizations are doing. And from my perspective, I was in HR and then consulting and back in HR again. I’m seeing that people just are not using that research either.

Right. So the problems that people are having can be resolved by creating healthier workplace environments. Yet we’re not leveraging that research effectively very often. So We were having glasses of wine at a friend’s wedding and thought, Hey, we could do something together. Let’s combine our forces and think about how we can bring this research to folks in a way.

That’s maybe a little bit more interesting, a little bit easier to digest than what might live in the academic literature. So we just started off with a blog and a podcast and just sharing [00:02:00] research and breaking it down. Talking about takeaways and how you can do that. And then we’ve transitioned to doing some of our own research to really highlight, um, what are those behaviors that leaders specifically can do to create healthy workplace environments, which led us to our book.

So we’ve been doing speaking and trainings and helping coach leaders. And now we have a book. That’s going to be sharing the details of that research to really concretely show actions that people can take to make a change and make the right environment.

Andrea: I love it. Besties in life and business.

Patricia: We’re very lucky.

Andrea: Yeah, it’s fun. And the blend of taking the academic or theoretic and things we all learned in school or we know because we saw the research study. But transferring that into practical actions, I think is such a gap and people want to do it, but they don’t always know how to. So I [00:03:00] love that, especially when it comes to workplace, because you know, people don’t want to mess up or make mistakes or do things that waste money and time.

So I know that a foundation of the worker being is the leading for wellness framework, which Places leadership kind of at the heart of workplace wellness, which I, of course, I’m a fan of. And we talk about a lot on this show. So can you share some of those key characteristics of leaders who you have found successfully create thriving and good team cultures?

Katina: Yeah. Absolutely. At a high level, we find that there are sets of behaviors that these leaders do that really help to create the thriving work environments that employees crave and that organizations wish more leaders would work to create. And so from that perspective, there are several sort of clusters of behaviors that we talk about in the book that make up this framework.

Um, and they center on things like being your real self. Um. [00:04:00] Thinking about the norms that you adhere to at work and whether or not that’s actually authentic to you, sharing your struggles with other people, um, making sure that you’re not just working to work, but you’re actually thinking about the culture that you’re setting on the team.

How do you create an environment where people are connected and that they want to, um, really help each other to be successful as opposed to competing with each other? Um, we also talk a lot about leaders really thinking about. The extent to which work supports people’s lives, um, and helping them to have full and happy lives outside of work.

And kind of the last cluster of behavior sits around thinking through the idea that really wellness is a personal set of preferences, not everybody in our research defined wellness in the same way. And so we need to think about how to tailor our approaches, perhaps not at the organizational level, but this is where leaders come really in handy.

They can get to know individual employees and think about how to work within the structure they’re in to create less blanket solutions and more tailored things that [00:05:00] are going to work for individuals.

Andrea: Just like almost everything else with staffing and culture, it is about, it sounds like building relationships and understanding what individual people need, and then key takeaway, everybody, you have to take action on that.

A lot of times knowing it, cause we all know it. It’s like, you should get exercise and we know that, but unless we do it, it doesn’t actually make a difference.

Katina: Yeah. I think one of the things to kind of follow up on that too, I always say in my classes that, you know, people know there are lots of things that they’re supposed to do at work to be more productive, um, you know, to create a better work environment, but they don’t do it.

Not always because they’re not motivated to do it, but because they just don’t really understand clearly the actions for how. And so our hope is that we break down these kind of fuzzy concepts that we see happening a lot in different trainings where people leave really motivated, like, yeah, of course I want to create a happier and healthier work environment.

But what does happier mean? What does healthier mean? How do I do [00:06:00] that? So really breaking it down into the behaviors is helpful for having people who leave motivated or read motivated, but then actually have like a clear, okay, how do I now apply that to create change?

Andrea: Yeah. And what I like about the kind of big Buckets are, they’re not new concepts, you know, it’s something that we do hear about and we know to be true.

And for me, I think the biggest indicator that something is real is that you do see it over and over in different ways, different research, different literature, different lived experience, because the same thing is true. And so it just shows up in a variety of different ways, but you can’t escape. Kind of the foundational needs of having a healthy culture, which includes healthy individuals, even though there’s a thousand ways kind of to get there.

So I guess a little different. So if we’re thinking about our current reality, we are still, and probably never will be again, all in the same place at the same hours on the same [00:07:00] days. So given That, you know, how do you see wellness initiatives evolving in a hybrid or, or even fully remote environment, and are there challenges, opportunities, kind of, I know, again, we’ve talked about this, but I think people get stuck on how do I actually do that.

Do it. So any insight there, I think, could help a lot of people.

Patricia: It’s a great question. I think when it comes to the hybrid or remote work environment, the biggest challenge is creating that cohesive culture, right? You’re not sitting in the same place as everybody. You’re not physically demonstrating behaviors all the time that you maybe want to see others model.

So you have to figure out how to kind of get through those barriers as you’re trying to create that healthy environment. You go. Want to be doing the same things. You want to be building relationships across your team. You want to be building a culture where people are helping each other. People are sharing their gratitude for each other.

People are exhibiting positive health behaviors, [00:08:00] but how do you do that when you’re not sitting in the room all the time? So as a leader, you have to be very intentional and how you create those relationships across your team. How do you build the culture? How do you bring people together? Maybe from time to time, if you have a fully remote.

Workforce. We definitely recommend having people come on site together or do an off site where you get to meet interact in person for a period of time. It doesn’t have to be a long period of time. It doesn’t have to be constantly and frequently. Um, we’re definitely Big advocates for remote work. There’s a lot of benefits from a wellness perspective, um, to having remote work, but having some time on site just to build and strengthen relationships can be super valuable as you try to create a culture that continues to thrive without your constant oversight as a leader.

So I think being very intentional about how you build that community and relationships within the team is crucial. Um, but as. Katina has already mentioned, and we’ve already talked about a lot, the [00:09:00] individualization of workplace wellness is really helpful here. Like this is a place where you’re able to use the environment, the difference in time and people working, you know, people integrating their work and life a bit more because they’re at home that can.

Be helpful for folks that need to do those things that can be in a better place with their family, with their health, et cetera, if they are able to go to the gym at noon or pick up their kid, um, earlier in the day and then work a little bit later, right? Those kinds of flexibilities that hybrid and remote environments provide can be hugely beneficial to creating a thriving environment where your employees are actually able to do what they need to do to feel like whole human beings.

Andrea: I have a couple of follow up questions because I agree with you, and I’m curious if in your research or, you know, your experience as you’ve worked with organizations, have you seen differences in workplace wellness participation or outcomes [00:10:00] for those who are remote versus those who are in person?

Patricia: When you’re speaking about these, uh, participation workplace wellness, are you referring to specific programs or initiatives?

Andrea: Well, I’m, I mean, perhaps I’m just wondering if you’ve seen a difference in like, Oh, people who are work from home, who have more ability to flex their schedule and go to the gym in the middle of the day, they are more engaged or they have more, um, higher performance or they’re, you know, They’re actively joining things more than people who maybe are in person or vice versa.

It’s a great question,

Patricia: and I think there’s some mixed literature on this right now. We’re still kind of learning a lot about the remote environment. There is some evidence to show that as long as you’re able to build that team cohesion, bring people together, you know, at some point to build those relationships, that performance does not drop if you’re Remote or hybrid and sometimes can actually be better, um, partially because of things that you just mentioned, right?

Because people are able to, um, take the time that maybe a commute [00:11:00] would take from their day and use it either to continue some project work. We do see a lot of remote workers tend to work longer hours or they can use that time to do some sort of. Self care something to take care of themselves or their families, um, in a way that allows them to balance their time a little bit better.

So there are a lot of positives there for sure. Um, I think that only exists though, if you’re able to have leaders that are integrating you within the organization still and within the team, if you lose that, then people can quickly disengage because they don’t feel connected to the purpose, the mission of the team, you know, they don’t have a why, um, to what they’re doing and they don’t feel like.

They’re having an impact. So I think that piece is very, very critical to keep those remote employees engaged. But I do think that there’s, um, some initial data. I don’t think we’re really have full understanding yet. But when people are commuting long hours, we do see that they’re not [00:12:00] going to be able to take the time they need for self care in the same way.

Katina: I also wanted to add to that quickly that there’s a concept that we talk about in the book, it’s not from our independent research, but it exists in the broader research around segmenters and integrators. And there are certain people who really thrive in work environments where they can sort of integrate their work and life activities throughout the course of the day.

And then there are other folks who really like to have that separation. And in a remote environment, it becomes a little harder to have that separation. Whereas in a, you know, in person work environment, it becomes a little bit harder to integrate. And so thinking about how you can help people to lean into their preference in that way, regardless of where they’re working.

So maybe some segmenters who are working from home really need some clear boundaries to start and stop their work day, and people need to respect those. And maybe some integrators need to be in a workplace where place where people are not judging them, um, every time they’re, you know, on the phone with the bank trying to make a transfer in the middle of meetings or something, right?

So whether you’re in [00:13:00] person or remote, there are these preferences that people have. And going back to that idea of tailoring, that also has something to do with whether or not people experience those environments as being supportive of their work life balance.

Andrea: That makes a lot of sense. And again, comes back to knowing the individual and I agree.

It does seem like the, the base, the biggest factor that would move it one direction or the other is that sense of connection, belonging, psychological safety, but I also understand why the research would be mixed because while remote staff in theory would maybe have more flexibility when you’re in person, there’s more.

I’m going to say peer pressure, but I’ll say human motivation to show up to the things going on. Or, you know, you have that little nudge of seeing your friend and, you know, having that person live with you. So I was just curious. I think it’s something that we’re still, like you mentioned, learning as we, this is all one big experiment.

Yes, exactly. Experiment [00:14:00] of life and work. Okay. So one thing that I definitely think is overlooked in discussions around employee wellness is emotional labor. I think that topic feels a bit too Jarring sometimes to people, like it’s a heavy topic, but it’s important because managers are doing emotional labor all the time.

So how can leaders better understand and support their employees who deal with high emotional demands in their roles, or perhaps they’ve got a lot of personal things going on outside of work that are impacting their lives in work. So I’m just curious if you could talk to us a little bit about emotional labor.

Katina: Sure, yeah, um, so emotions in the workplace are, this is an interesting domain, right, because historically people have sort of wanted to think, or have thought, or tried to push the idea that emotions shouldn’t find their way into work, and that’s just not a human way of working. We have emotions, and suppressing those emotions makes us [00:15:00] Worse, uh, in the long run from a well being perspective and also decreases our performance.

Um, there’s a concept called surface acting, which is basically this idea that you feel differently, but you suppress the feeling that you feel and you act in a different way. And all of us have to do a certain level of surface acting at work, especially people in customer service roles. You know, um, client facing roles, things of that nature.

If you have no release or relief from that, you feel like you’re constantly on or performing, um, the job that you’re doing, the role that you’re doing, and you can’t be authentic with your team, or you feel like you’re always putting on a persona, that becomes very exhausting over time. And so, one of the things that we found that people talked about that their leaders did really well, was that they were real people.

They shared when they were scared about things or worried about things. They shared when they were upset about something. They came after a meeting and said, you know, that was a really rough meeting, let’s talk about it. Um, so instead of brushing things under the rug, when possible, these leaders were more open and honest about how they were feeling.

[00:16:00] And that encouraged other team members to be more open and honest about their feelings too. There’s a concept in emotional labor called emotional contagion, and, um, I think people are afraid that if they share negative emotions, those emotions are going to catch on. And there is some evidence that suggests that sharing negative emotions can create more negativity in a team.

But there’s a lot of research that also shows that continuing to suppress those negative emotions is not good either. So what you really need is a good way, a productive way, of sharing those negative emotions, talking them through, and helping to, you Use them in productive ways to figure out how to solve problems and move forward more effectively.

So, um, while people might be afraid that sharing negativity is just going to make everyone negative, we find that if you do so in an effective manner without just like letting loose on people without debriefing, it actually has a long term positive implication. So in our research, we definitely encourage people to get connected with their emotions, share those emotions, and be more authentic with others on their team at work.

Andrea: Yes, I know in my work with mental health and You know, being in HR, I have [00:17:00] seen many a time when people shove those feelings down, shove them down, shove them down, and then they come out at the most inconvenient time. And it’s really a terrible day for that person and a terrible day for a lot of other people.

And so you can ignore your feelings to a point and then it’s no longer your decision. So it is in your own personal best interest to find some kind of Of outlet for those and ideally not on the job. Right. I mean, it’s not something we typically want to do given the choice. Absolutely. Yeah. Sharing emotions is good, but exploding

Katina: is not good.

Andrea: Never. Never. I like what you were talking about also with kind of being real versus fake, because people can tell when you’re being authentic. And when you are being yourself, it gives people permission to be themselves also. And that is so important, especially when you are in a leadership role. And it’s a lot of pressure on leaders.

So Patricia, [00:18:00] I want to kind of steer to you for this one, because with your extensive experience consulting with 60 plus organizations, what common misconceptions have you seen from leaders either about, you know, their own role in employee wellness or around how they engage with employee wellness?

Patricia: I love this question.

I think what you just said is one major misconception around the authenticity and showing your authentic self. I think a lot of leaders believe that they need to be perfect and need to be super competent. They can’t make mistakes. And that’s not what employees want. They want to see leaders that are real that, yeah, sometimes they don’t succeed and that’s okay.

They get back up. They do it again, right? There’s um, There’s some value to seeing that authenticity within your leaders. So then you feel like you can also. And if you make a mistake, you know, that leader is going to be supportive and help you and you can work through it versus, you know, it [00:19:00] being kind of like a, an end to your career or something like that, because you are missing the mark in some way.

Right. So if you see that your leader has that authenticity and has that vulnerability, you feel like you’d be more vulnerable back to them. But to your broader question, I think the biggest misconception I’ve seen around employee wellness. Is the fact that it’s all on the employees to manage. There’s a lot of, um, programs that are provided organizationally, right?

You’ll see like maybe there’s a reimbursement for a gym or some sort of, um, app that you have access to, or mindfulness, meditation trainings, or things like that. Those are all really great tools for people to use when they’re able to use them, but that’s the key. Are they able to actually use them? Do they have the capacity, the time, the space?

Um, how is the environment supporting the employee overall? And those, those programs are great benefits, but they’re not the thing that’s driving their wellness, right? Like if I have time to take a [00:20:00] walk, I don’t necessarily need a gym reimbursement. There’s other things I can do to take care of myself, um, that are more important to me and the things maybe I value more than what the organization’s providing, but if I don’t have the time or the space to do it, that’s where my wellness is going to be impacted.

So leaders need to understand that their behaviors and the environments they’re creating actually has a huge impact on how employees can take care of themselves. Do they have the time, the capacity, the energy, um, or are they just burnt out and completely exhausted by the end of the day where they can’t really do anything to help themselves.

So there is a huge piece of responsibility on leaders and organizations. Um, and I think the biggest misconception is the fact that employees kind of drive that behavior versus. The environment around them.

Andrea: Yeah.

Patricia: Leaders got to walk the walk. They do and create space for people to do that.

Andrea: Yeah. And I think that authenticity again is critical for visibility and representation [00:21:00] inside the workplace more than we might realize.

So Katina, your work in diversity and leadership is highly regarded. So how do inclusive leadership and diversity initiatives tie into overall employee wellness from your view?

Katina: Absolutely. Yeah, so I think they’re extremely related in the literature. The concept of inclusion is really about people feeling like they belong, but also feeling like they can express themselves authentically and be unique.

And a lot of what we’ve been talking about has to do with this authentic expression and also making sure that people feel connected and part of the team. I think the part where, uh, things get tough is that to really be a leader who embraces wellness, you need to make sure that you’re thinking about each of your employees in this tailored way, getting to know them and understanding what it is that supports their wellness and, and being open to the feedback.

Um, we talk about, you know, leaders being willing to accept feedback from their employees, um, in a way that they can share and be vulnerable with them about ways to improve. You need to be able to accept feedback [00:22:00] that maybe you are. playing favorites with people, or maybe you are showing some biases in the way you’re making decisions.

And so when you create that team environment where people feel safe to come to you with these concerns, and you’re trying to create this like equivalent environment, harmonious environment for people to really feel happy and healthy. Oftentimes the inclusion is a by product of that because a lot of what you’re doing is putting those building blocks in place.

We have a chapter in our book about eliminating mental health stigma. Where we get more specific into really the biases, um, that come into play when people have and are facing mental health challenges in the workplace and that this was really a taboo thing to talk about and continues to be a taboo thing to talk about.

That’s true for other stigmas too. That we might experience some work stigmas around sexual orientation, gender identity, etc. Um, and so this general concept of thinking about why you have negative reactions to things, or why you have negative attitudes about, um, individuals who might be grappling with things that you’ve not grappled with, and really [00:23:00] thinking about listening and learning from their perspective with an open mind, and then incorporating what you’ve learned into the way that you lead.

That’s a skill that really bridges the gap across multiple stigmas, multiple identities. In our book, like I said, we talk about it from a mental health perspective, but certainly practicing that set of behaviors would also create a more inclusive work environment across demographic groups as well.

Andrea: Yeah.

So with that, let’s switch focus a little bit to the book leading for wellness as it highlights the importance of leadership and fostering employee wellness, which we’ve been talking about. So can you explain what it means to be a generator leader and why that might matter?

Patricia: Of course. So a generator, we coined the term because we really liked the idea of these leaders providing energy to their employees, right?

They generate energy, they generate enthusiasm, performance, all these really positive things on a team and everything we’ve talked about kind of is encompassed in what a generator is. So when Katina was [00:24:00] walking through the sections of the book, all of those behaviors that we found in our research are what generators embody and generators are those leaders that she mentioned before that.

Employees want to work for the leaders that you wanted to become and hopefully can become through using the framework and that organizations really want to hire because they’re the ones that are going to not only create healthy environments for employees, but really drive results because we know when people are well, they do well as well.

A lot of wells there, um, but generators just kind of, again, to summarize kind of the, the key themes, like they’re the ones that are authentic, they’re, um, sharing their vulnerabilities, they’re leading by example, they’re able to disconnect themselves or showing that they’re, you know, getting their exercise in going to the doctor, what have you.

They’re showing examples of how they’re taking care of themselves and their personal lives. Um, they’re building those. Cultures and relationships or teams help each other [00:25:00] and thrive together and want to be solid, um, community together. And then they’re also the ones that are personalizing their approaches to their employees.

So they have built a strong community. Everybody’s helping. Pitching in, um, but they know that what people need varies and they’re really intentional understanding who their employees are and how they can support their specific needs. So generators embody all those behaviors and do a great job of creating environments where employees feel connected, feel committed and feel like their whole selves.

They can be great at work, great at home, um, and are able to thrive.

Andrea: So as they’re generating all those great ideas and cultures, I know earlier we briefed, we briefly touched on the fact that there’s a mismatch between how employees and employers or leaders are really all people can define wellness differently.

So we’re, what were the biggest gaps that you have seen?

Katina: Yeah, I think that the biggest gap [00:26:00] that we really see is that organizations think about wellness as a program or as an initiative. They think about wellness in the sense of like, we have this step competition, or we’ve got this nutritional eating, uh, program, or we’ve got this, Um, you know, mindfulness at lunch.

And so they’re really thinking about wellness as here’s our workplace and we’re going to add other stuff to sort of counterbalance the bad things that you might experience at work. Right. And they’re not really thinking about shifting the work culture from the root. And so the biggest misconception I think that people have is that, you know, we have to do.

We have to add stuff. We have to buy stuff. We have to tax stuff on. We have to have all these different resources for people to use. Those aren’t bad. And in fact, in an environment where things are working from the root, they’re great because people actually have the time to use them and they can benefit from them.

It helps maximize the environment that they’re in. Um, but, you know, Using them as a substitute for changing the culture to support wellness at the core is basically like, you know, you’re, you’re fighting a battle that you’re [00:27:00] causing for yourself. You’re creating stress out employees, and then you’re paying for these programs to help them combat their stress.

And it continues the cycle. What our participants told us was that it’s the day to day interactions that they have with their leaders and other people that really make up the fabric of whether or not they feel well. And they thought about wellness in similar ways that organizations have physical health, mental health.

Emotional health, right? They’re thinking about these things similarly, um, in similar buckets, but it’s where it’s coming from and how it’s delivered to them, um, that’s really making the big difference.

Andrea: Yeah. So I know you all did a ton of in depth research. So within that research, was there anything that surprised

Patricia: you?

It’s a great question. And we’ve talked about this a lot because I think, as you mentioned earlier, we’ve been in this research so much that there weren’t. Massive surprises. But when we talk to people, that’s when we learn where the surprises and the insights really are. That’s, I think, been really helpful for us, um, since we had a lot of hypotheses going in already.

And luckily for us, they [00:28:00] were, uh, they kind of came to the forefront. I think the things that really stood out to me, and I’m sure Katina has some that stand out to her as well. Um, I think it’s the The fact that time that leader inputs into this isn’t the thing that matters the most. So one of the things that I found super interesting is people complain about time like leaders.

I don’t have time to get to know my employees. I don’t have time to do X, Y, Z. I don’t have time to build this culture. I have to get my goals completed. What we learned pretty quickly from our research is that. You, there’s an initial investment in that time, but once you’ve done that, once you’ve built that culture, once you have employees that have bought into that culture and are doing the same things are helping each other, it’s no longer solely on you to maintain it and continue it.

Your whole team is now behind you and helping support this thriving culture and supporting each other and stepping in when things are needed. So you don’t have to be present. All the time as a leader, you were able to create a culture where people are doing the right thing when you’re [00:29:00] not there. So that I think is a piece, um, that is very valuable given that when you’re looking to create these changes and you’re looking to create a healthier work environment, I think the biggest roadblock people come in like face is time.

And if we can convince you that spending a little bit of time up front is actually going to save you time later on. Um, I think that makes all of this worth it. So that’s a huge one that was a surprise to me, I think, was the timepiece.

Katina: I would say for me, a surprise would be that, and not, maybe not a surprise, but a really good reminder, um, is that, you know, in the interviews, as we were talking to people about these leaders and what they meant to them and everything that they’ve done to help make their lives happier and healthier.

So many stories were shared of employees really dealing with a lot of struggles, elder care, sick kids, themselves being sick, um, stressful family situations, divorces, um, you know, uh, things that had natural [00:30:00] disasters, like many things, right, that are going on in your employees lives. And it was interesting to me, at least in the conversations, that We’d start the interview and hi, how are you and very professional and whatever and within only a few minutes in many instances people were crying and sharing really deep things and I think a really good reminder for leaders out there if you’re hesitant to jump into this pool is that you’re already in it.

Um, people already have all these things going on and ignoring that those things are going on doesn’t mean that it’s going away. It just means that you’re not dealing with it in an effective manner. So if you’re a person who’s like, I don’t do emotions at work, I don’t care about workplace wellness, you’re already in an environment that’s emotion focused and wellness focused.

Um, it’s just that you’re not. Taking the time or the energy to manage that appropriately, so your team, many members of your team may be right on the surface of, you know, having a real serious emotional breakdown and trying to, like, write a report. Right. And if they had an environment that better supported their ability to [00:31:00] actually deal with these things better, you might see people in a much healthier and productive state.

Andrea: That is so spot on. It is absolutely happening if you acknowledge it or not. And along that same line, if you are supportive and you offer help or assistance, you are not enabling or making it worse or creating an A culture where no one wants to do work because we want to sit around and talk about our feelings.

That’s not the move That’s not how it works

Katina: Yeah, nobody in our study said I don’t want to do my job. I just want to sit around and talk about feelings They said I want to be really good at my job And I want to do well and this would be helpful to me in getting there

Andrea: Exactly. So all of you people just play that clip right there to your resistant managers

So One thing I would love to know, especially because you all have done, you know, such, such great research is when we’re looking to the future of workplace wellness [00:32:00] and where it’s going and how we can do better and maybe even just keep working on the basics. I don’t know. What trends are you seeing?

What do you anticipate? Kind of what, where can we guide our, our efforts based on what you’re seeing? So

Patricia: I love this question because I think a lot of what we are trying to do is stay away from trends. Right. Let’s debunk the fact that you need to be constantly updating your programs to match the new trend.

Like, are we suddenly going to have reformers for Pilates at workplaces? Because that’s such a big trend right now. Are we going to be doing those types of things? Probably not. And that’s not going to help because as we talked about, it’s all about the environment and the culture. So I think the types of things that are going to come in And maybe disrupt how people are thinking about the environment is gonna be more things like remote work or working at different hours.

Um, you know, maybe different. Let’s say a company goes to like a four day work week. And so now how do you manage creating a culture when people aren’t working on the [00:33:00] same days? So there’s those types of things I, I foresee are going to be a bigger challenge for us to overcome. But the yeah. Core behaviors of leaders should stay the same.

You’re still going to be creating that culture and environment. You still want to be focusing on individualized support. And those are kind of trend proof there. They’re things that are going to continue to be really important to create healthy environments. Um, and then you can kind of deal with the trends as they come.

Andrea: Yes. Trends versus variety. For engagement right you need it you need variety because people get tired of the same old same old every single time but you don’t need a new trend for variety so I really I really like that the classics are classics for a reason and then you can add a dash of spice here and there to keep it.

So before we go, I do want to ask you both a question. I ask all of our guests, which is if you would tell us something [00:34:00] about yourself that most people may not know and bonus points, if it’s something that the other one of you doesn’t know, you know, since you’ve been. business partners and friends for a long time.

That might be a really juicy one. That’s a

Katina: wrench. I don’t know what it doesn’t know. Um, I can try one. Yeah, I can try one, but I do think Patricia already knows this one. Um, I can write forwards and backwards at the same time. So like I’m left handed. And I, so I can like mirror right forwards and backwards at once, uh, fun party trick has no bearing on my ability to live or survive in the real world, but I can do it.

Patricia: I think it does say something about your brilliant brain, but yes, I did know that one. That’s

Katina: another. Oh goodness.

Patricia: I don’t think I have anything to beat that one. Um, I’m always really [00:35:00] bad at these like things that people don’t really know about me because I feel like I’m a fairly open book.

Katina: And I want to tell you, I’m like thinking, I’m like, I know ones, but then the point is I’m not, you’re supposed to try one that I don’t know.

Patricia: I’ll allow it. Um,

Andrea: that one, it’s fine.

Patricia: Here’s what Katina probably doesn’t know. Oh, I never crawled. I went straight to walking.

Katina: I didn’t know that. That is so interesting. Also, like, like what? I need more information, I think. My mom says,

Patricia: well, I’ll tell you that my mom says it’s because I didn’t like being on the ground because it was too dirty.

So I was one of those kids.

Katina: Oh, I do think that makes sense. I, I get that I, that is adding up to me, I get that.

Andrea: And, you know, entrepreneur, businesswoman, author. It makes sense. [00:36:00] You just had places to go.

Patricia: Yes, I was on the move right away.

Andrea: Well, thank you both for sharing. It’s always fun to have a little personal tidbit here at the end. So I appreciate you very much for being here. for doing the work you’re doing out in the world and for sharing it with us.

Thank you for being on the show. Thank you. Thank you for having us. All right. We’ll see y’all next time.