Phil Chun from Polaris Leadership Consulting | Building Better Work Cultures with Empathy and Engagement

Andrea: [00:00:00] Welcome back everyone to another episode of the HR scoop. My favorite podcast on the internet. Of course, today we have with us a Phil Chen, the founder and principal consultant at Polaris Leadership Consulting. So welcome Phil. We’re so happy to have you.

Phil: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I’m extremely excited to be here.

Andrea: Yeah, it’s, I’m always excited. And today is no exception. Um, we have talked with traditional HR folks, fractional CHROs, and some consultants who all have various journeys and approaches. So I’m curious just as a way of introduction, if you would tell us a little bit about your HR world and what inspired you to found Polaris Leadership Consulting.

Phil: Yeah, well, first of all, I like to call myself an HR survivor, uh, who is still in the HR field, any kind of leadership position, uh, you are all doing the [00:01:00] Lord’s work. So I appreciate each and every one of you are still out there doing that. Um, but yeah, I, for about a decade, I was a senior HR person for a number of different companies.

Phil: And. The reason I started my consulting firm is actually not so inspirational. It was very much out of necessity. And what I mean by that is my last salary job was probably the most toxic place I’d ever worked in. I got totally burned out and after a couple of months of therapy and trying to figure out what to do with my life, decided to try and figure out if there was a way to never work for anyone else ever again.

Phil: And so, uh, from that journey, I started Polarization Consulting. Uh, but over the years, as I’ve run my consulting firm, of course, the passion behind, uh, why I do what I do has, of course, changed. And so, um, yeah, it’s been quite a journey.

Andrea: Sorry, you had that experience and [00:02:00] unfortunately, I don’t think you’re alone now, you know, especially in the last few years, I’ve heard of more and more HR professionals leaving the profession altogether because it is hard.

Phil: Yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, and I think that was, you know, really emphasized during the pandemic, you know, and this is not a tangible necessarily to go down, but I think during the pandemic, especially. Absolutely. HR professionals were so pivotal, uh, and it was really emphasized how important those roles are, especially for, for culture and health.

Andrea: It’s a great point. And really, if we think about why are people getting burned out, it’s because they aren’t in a good environment. You know, you said it was toxic and there are a lot of those out there. And that’s part of what we’re trying to do with this podcast and, you know, people in the field doing good work is to make that better.

Andrea: And I’ve heard of, and certainly believe in, a person centered approach when it comes to culture building and employee [00:03:00] engagement. How do you define a person centered approach and do you, do you like it? Is that something you resonate with?

Phil: Yeah, I would say for the most part, I definitely resonate with it.

Phil: I think the way I would define person centered approach, uh, is probably a little different from the typical definition, um, when I think about the person centered approach. Uh, the phrase that comes to mind for me is that this person is doing the best they can with what they have. Um, and so, when we start off with that, Foundation, I think it really lends to, uh, providing support frameworks or whatever it might be that the person really needs, uh, uh, moving forward.

Andrea: Yeah, it’s in every person is different, right? And that’s also why we have jobs is because each employee is unique yet. We all have to come together. As whole people to support the mission of the company. So when we hear about the [00:04:00] importance of improving engagement and the need to build culture all the time, right, it is a huge part of what we need to do in this line of work.

Andrea: I think the missing part I tend to find is the tie back to why the leadership or stakeholders should care. To put it bluntly. Um, so from your view, what impact does a well crafted employee experience actually have on overall business performance and even the bottom line?

Phil: I mean, I think it’s so pivotal.

Phil: The way that I like to think about it is. You know, in any organization, the product and the services you provide to your consumer base is kind of like the vehicle that the organization runs on. Uh, but your environment, your culture, and the people that you have within that, those are the people who are actually driving the car.

Phil: So you can have, you know, a great Lambo, great product and a service, but if you have You know, somebody in the driver’s seat that is, uh, you know, really out of alignment or not doing well, you know, that car might [00:05:00] get to its destination, but, you know, you might crash a couple of times and scratch the car along the way.

Phil: I think it’s really good.

Andrea: Yeah, it goes self driving cars that none of us want to get in.

Phil: Exactly. That’s right.

Andrea: Yeah. And I think about this too with AI, I feel like is one of those topics we hear a lot about, but for good reason, right? Because AI is doing things that, you know, previously needed a person to do that.

Andrea: Maybe we don’t. And so when you’re talking about an environment and creating that experience and why people should care at the end of the day, you’ve got to have a human touch. It’s the human beings. Either putting the cog in the box or, you know, building a platform or creating something that touches emotion.

Andrea: So people take action. I really do think it is always comes down to the people you have. Otherwise it wouldn’t. Why would we even go through an interview process?

Phil: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I’ll also just add not to take us on [00:06:00] too far of a tangent. I think creating that human touch. And I’d be curious to hear about, you know, your perspective and your experience, especially as you interview so many people within this realm.

Phil: I think creating that human experience has gotten harder over time. It does feel like, at least from what I’ve seen and what I’ve heard with some of my clients and just colleagues, uh, the expectations that people have, whether it be different generations of employees in the workplace or just societal expectations.

Phil: Um, it just feels like it’s been an uphill battle to do that really well.

Andrea: Couldn’t agree more. I mean, generational differences. I really do enjoy talking about them because I think it’s always relevant and it always has been right. But currently we do have a broader range of generations than we’ve ever had in the workforce.

Andrea: And yet, if we really peel it back. Most people want the same thing. They want to do a good job. They want to be recognized for that work and they want to feel like they are part of [00:07:00] a company that cares at least a little bit about them.

Phil: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that’s, that’s spot on and really the, the middle thing that you set up being recognized for their work, I think is so important, uh, you know, providing that clarity or whether or not somebody is on track or off track.

Phil: And then of course, developing that person, if they’re off track. Is such, in my opinion, a pivotal part of. Um, creating that culture and that, that person centered.

Andrea: Yeah. And what that means for everybody is different, right? What, what that looks like and how it shows up will vary, not just by generation, but by personal preference, you have your shy people or your introverts who would please for the love of everything, do not recognize me in front of a group.

Andrea: And then you have those that are like, actually put my name right up on the screen. I want to see it in big letters. It’s.

Phil: A hundred percent. You know, it’s funny, I think for me. I love getting the award in front of people. I’m definitely one of those, uh, wants to be recognized in [00:08:00] public, but I hate speaking in public.

Phil: So I just want the award, the light, the picture, and then to get off that stage, no acceptance speech. Uh, just want to get that award in public and then be out of there. So to your point, Every person is different. Every individual is dynamic.

Andrea: Agreed. Agreed. And the introverts really thank us for pointing that out.

Andrea: I’m sure. Um, also as a note, if you don’t know, that is actually a good tip. If you are going to give out employee awards, which are really good at town halls or even a peer to peer recognition, it is good to check in with the person. If you can, sometimes it’s a surprise, but if you’re able to, if someone’s accepting award, always good to ask them what they prefer.

Andrea: So they, so they have a good experience.

Phil: Absolutely. I think if you have the ability to do that and you have managers who are. You know, have a good relationship with their with their employees, and it’s a very [00:09:00] critical part of that employee experience.

Andrea: So I think another important factor when we think about just workplace dynamics is we know that employees who feel feel like their managers and leaders trust them and have their back perform better, feel a stronger sense of belonging and tend to stay with an organization for a longer time.

Andrea: So do you have strategies that you share or that you’ve seen work to help support leaders and kind of developing that trust within teams?

Phil: Yeah, I would say, you know, from what I’ve seen is that the strategy kind of changes over time, but what I’m seeing right now of what teams really need from their leaders is for the leader or the team lead to be I’m really clear with their expectations.

Phil: You know, I think to your point, as you, as you mentioned earlier, most people want to know what it means to do a really good job at, you know, they want to feel successful. They want to feel like they’re, uh, you know, doing well and they want to [00:10:00] know what, what their, you know, official unprofessional metrics are.

Phil: And so I think for leaders, uh, it is so crucial for them to be able to communicate clearly. Uh, those expectations that and I would also add, I think, you know, something that at least from a framework and in an empowerment standpoint of a lot of the work that I do with my clients. It’s also clarity on the behavioral expectations of that person, so not just, of course, their technical job description and their, you know, their KPIs, but also the way, uh, the kind of team player the organization wants them to be.

Phil: I think that’s a really important part of, uh, the clarity that a leader needs to communicate to their team. Uh, and not in a way of, you know, dictating their behaviors or the person they should be. But really, as a general, uh, best practice, here is the kind of behaviors that we’re looking for in every team member that will really [00:11:00] contribute to the overall success of the organization team.

Andrea: Yeah, because if you’re working there and they are paying you, there is an expectation that you are contributing something of value to the organization. And we, you know, it’s easy to say clear expectations, but what I’ve seen is people are pretty bad at doing it.

Phil: Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I think, uh, you know, it, I’ll also add it’s, it’s hard to do in the beginning if you don’t already have that skill set and, uh, it can be pretty daunting to try and build that skill set with your team members because no one likes to feel dumb or no one likes to feel stupid, especially when your leader who’s trying to communicate these expectations.

Phil: You know, you want to, you know, Most leaders want to feel like they do it really well from the beginning and so that gap of, uh, trying it out to doing it well is a pretty large gap that can be pretty overwhelming.

Andrea: Yeah, and there’s a fine line between being clear and setting [00:12:00] expectations and verging into micromanagement, which is tricky if you’re not adept at setting expectations.

Phil: Yeah, it’s, it feels like a very slippery slope. Uh, that, uh, yeah, it is, is a pretty scary adventure to, to try and yeah, go into.

Andrea: Yeah. And what I’ve seen too is when managers are trying it or they’re nervous or it’s new, what tends to happen? Is they don’t want to say anything. You know, no news is good news.

Andrea: It’s not really like that anymore. Quite the opposite, actually. I mean, we are inundated with feedback and information constantly, except at work.

Phil: Absolutely. I mean, I think that the no news is good news as a general organizational culture is really detrimental because if you think about it, when you operate under the pretense or, or the, where the, the culture that no one uses is good news Then any news typically feels like bad news, right?

Phil: It feels [00:13:00] like, you know, when you get called into your supervisor’s office that your first thought is I’m probably going to get fired. Yeah. And so, uh, yeah, it’s really important. I think for most managers, if possible to actually over communicate some of the expectations, some of their thought process as to what should happen and when, uh, and although that can feel especially like micro management in the beginning.

Phil: I do think, especially for new managers and people in new positions or even new organizations, uh, over communicating is actually better than under communicating.

Andrea: I could not agree more. I will just remind everyone, I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. In absence of information, humans will make up the story, and it is almost never positive or in your favor.

Phil: Yeah.

Andrea: Can’t stand blank gaps of information. So we fill it in with our fears and our anxiety, which does not do anyone any favors. So over communicate.

Phil: And I’ve got lots of [00:14:00] fears and anxieties. So you guys, you’ve got to tell me

Andrea: for sure. There’s plenty

Phil: to go

Andrea: around. So what about, and we know clarity is key and communication is good, but what about empathy and leadership?

Andrea: Do you think, or are you finding empathy is a buzzword or do you think it plays a real role in creating, uh, Kind of lasting effective leadership.

Phil: Yeah, I, you know, I think empathy in the workplace is so important, but I do think that as a whole, the. The definition of empathy is a little too vague, uh, to, to me, it’s almost like when you call, uh, your, your, your work culture, you know, the culture of family, everyone has a different experience of family, sound great, um, and so with empathy, I think it is incredibly important in the workplace, but the way that I, the way that I see empathy being really important in the [00:15:00] workplace is actually really the emphasis on, uh, your ability to try and, uh, Understand, uh, the motivation and values of another person by just, just very simple mantra of, you know, uh, walking in, walking a mile in their shoes.

Phil: And so to me, really effective empathy in the workplace is actually, uh, more effective when you could take a posture of curiosity as, uh, the first stage in any kind of conversation, whether it be. You know, just a typical interpersonal conversation or even a correct conversation.

Andrea: I really like that. Maybe if people are getting tired of some of those words, because people do get tired of words.

Andrea: And even though it’s no less important, sometimes we just have to keep it fresh to keep their attention. Um, I do really like maybe using curiosity as a, as a thought or an approach. Interesting. So another. Another word I feel like is [00:16:00] absolutely still relevant, but people are kind of getting over is burnout, um, and it’s overused, but it’s still so real.

Andrea: And we actually do need to keep working on, you know, buffering against it and taking care of ourselves. Do you have an approach to supporting professionals? With this. I know you experienced some of it. You know, we just talked about how HR professionals in particular had kind of a rough go of it. Are there any solutions that you have that you could share?

Phil: Absolutely. I think with burnout, there are two really critical things that need to happen. And I want to be mindful of saying preventing burnout because I actually don’t know. If it’s really possible to prevent burnout, especially as you take on leadership positions that have a lot of responsibility, or if you’re a business owner or an entrepreneur.

Phil: But I think there are two critical pieces to combating burnout effectively. The first, I think, is [00:17:00] really having a good community around you. And if you’re lucky enough, that might be people within your organization, but I think more often than not, it’s people outside of your workplace. And so having that community is really important.

Phil: But not just that, I think with, but when you have community, the other really important piece is being, uh, is communicating how you are doing to the people, uh, around you who are really important to you. Um, because, you know, I’ve found that at least for me, and a lot of the people that I work with, uh, burnout comes in different seasons.

Phil: Like you have some seasons where you feel like you are burning out every day. You have some seasons in the workplace where you’re doing great. Uh, but it’s really important to communicate as much as you can to the important people around you so that they can actually, in some sense, ask you the right questions about how you’re doing and things that they’re noticing about you.

Phil: You know, hey, you seem to be extra short with me or you’re not enjoying the meal [00:18:00] that you really tend to enjoy, what’s going on? And I think that question of what’s going on, uh, it’s really helpful for you to be able to zoom out for a minute and kind of self reflect. Hey, how am I doing? Am I, am I totally burned out?

Phil: Am I doing all right? Is it just a, Temporary thing, or am I really, you know, deep in the weeds of burnout?

Andrea: I like all the C’s feel like we have community communication and checking in and food. It’s not a C, but you know, food, cooking, let’s do it. Cooking.

Phil: Yeah. And so food is community, right? So we could definitely pick those two for sure.

Andrea: Yes. Sharing a meal or just checking in with somebody and saying, how are you? Oh, great. No. How are you? I have found the second. How are you? People know that you don’t want the courteous keep it moving answer. They’re actually asking. So that’s a good tip for one on ones or for even when you are talking to [00:19:00] managers or your leaders.

Andrea: How are you? Oh, great. Busy. It’s not the busy Olympics, but everybody’s always winning gold and busyness. Always. It’s the second one, you know, great. No, but like, how are you? Oh,

Phil: well, and I’d also add to that. When you, especially when you try and do that for people that you care about, whether that be your team members or, or, or people outside of the workplace, this, the first time you do the second, how are you?

Phil: You may not get a real response. And so I think it’s really important to, to keep trying, you know, of course, as long as you have the capacity to do so, I think it’s really important to continue to ask that second, how are you? Uh, and start to build that foundation of trust and rapport, uh, with the individual that you’re talking to, to communicate to them, like, Hey, you, you, you can tell me what’s going on.

Phil: I do care about you. Do you really want to know? And so it take, even that conversation takes time and repetition.

Andrea: Great point. [00:20:00] Yeah. The first one. They still might think you’re being polite and they just simply might not want to share, which is also fine, but if you stick with it, that is the only way trust gets built in relationships are formed is over time.

Andrea: And so as we have leaders or even just colleagues or people who aren’t necessarily, you know, they’re new to the organization, they’re learning it’s, you just got to stick with it and give people a little bit of time and space because we’re all at different points.

Phil: Well, I’m curious for you, Andrea, I know this is, you’re interviewing me, but I’m really curious to hear from you, you know, what works for you, especially when you are potentially hitting burnout, or you might be burned out, or it starts to even come on the radar for you?

Andrea: Yeah, it’s hard and I think it changes all the time for main physical movement is absolutely key, even if it is just a walk around the office or doing a jumping jack or just [00:21:00] getting some of that stress. Out and process through is very, very important. And another thing for me is community and laughter and hanging out with friends or family, but really just having that social part, even though I talk to people all day, it’s different when it’s personal and social and there’s laughter involved.

Phil: I really like what you said about the movement part, because I think there is a, you know, for me, I’m terrible. I feel like I’m pretty mindful about how am I, how I’m doing mentally. But I’m not so mindful about how my body is doing, especially as it takes on stress. And so it’s kind of like that thing that happens when you first learn how to drive and your shoulders are up towards your ears and your dad has to tell you like, Hey, lower your shoulders.

Phil: Right. And I think, um, I really like what you’re talking about. Of that movement piece, because it kind of creates that self awareness loop that’s really helpful, uh, for the physical body to relax.

Andrea: Yeah, and a lot of us [00:22:00] hold so much stress in our bodies without ever realizing it, and then it has significant impacts on your ability to be a human, be a person, like in all the ways, your sleep, your social, your snappy.

Andrea: Can’t be your best. So I think people get hung up where they think, Oh, that means I have to go do a 30 minute, whatever it isn’t. It could be a five minutes. It could be instead of taking a meeting, can you do a walking meeting? Can you walk together? Can you just even stand up and walk to get water together and then come back?

Andrea: I mean, these are little bitty things, but just keeping it moving in small Adds up through the day versus just one big blast. If you can

Phil: 100 percent and I think the opposite of true, it is true in some sense. You know, I’m a big fan of the, uh, the 15 minute power down, you know, it’s that, well, I, I, in general, I love laying down, uh, it’s helpful to me, especially [00:23:00] when my, when I start to notice how stressed my body is just to do.

Phil: You know, that kind of quick reset, just a 15 minute lay down, close my eyes, maybe listen to a little meditation that helps me really wind down for just even a short period of time. Uh, in many ways, just like movement, that’s been a great, uh, helpful reset for me. Uh, that, that, that I can deploy right away.

Andrea: I am a terrible napper. So I am very jealous of your 15 minute nap.

Phil: Yeah, I can nap anywhere. I love napping. I love sleeping in general. So.

Andrea: Well, I also do though, like the mindfulness and the meditation and y’all can go with me here or not, but Lil Jon put out a meditation album on Spotify and it is amazing, so.

Andrea: So if you haven’t started and you don’t, you’re not so sure, and you’re not so sure about the traditional ways. Maybe give that one a try.

Phil: It sounds like little John had potentially an existential crisis. Not too [00:24:00] long. I’m totally different. Uh, but I, I’m skeptical, but I, I will definitely try it out.

Andrea: You know, there’s something for everybody.

Andrea: Speaking of something for everybody, I think one thing that we all struggle with that before we wrap up, I’d love to get your thoughts on is new manager training and how. I think, I just think there’s a universal need with a chronic level of underserving new managers who are trying to become effective just seems like there’s always a gap.

Andrea: And so if you have any thoughts, ideas, any recommendations for people who want to do better In this area, I would love to hear it.

Phil: Yeah. So new manager training, and just to give a small plug for, for our, our firm, uh, you know, in terms of leadership development, uh, training new managers is one of our favorite things, uh, because it is to your point, it’s really difficult to be a new [00:25:00] manager, especially if you’ve been promoted internally, you know, you go from.

Phil: Uh, you know, being colleagues with the person to the left and to the right, all of a sudden managing that team, which is a big job. A framework that I really like to use for new managers, and I can’t remember who created this framework, so it’s not mine. Um, Is, is the acronym, uh, a performance, a P I E performance, emission exposure.

Phil: So I’ll explain this really quickly in a second, but I think when you’re a new manager, it feels like you’re drinking from a fire hose. There are, you have no idea where to begin. And so, uh, if you can break down, uh, what it means to be a good new manager, you need to performance image and exposure. It can be really helpful.

Phil: So really quickly performance is really your KPIs. You know, do you know what it means to win every day, every quarter? every year for your department. Uh, so those are the very objective metrics of your, your role in your department. Uh, image is the [00:26:00] way people experience you. So what you smell like, what you dress like, uh, your tone, volume, and cadence.

Phil: Uh, whether you’re early to meetings or on time, the experience that your team or the people around you, uh, should have a view as a new manager and exposure is really the concept of being at the right place at the right time. So if you’re overexposed, that could be seen as micromanaging or, uh, you know, be a little too eager.

Phil: Being underexposed typically looks like an absent manager who is never present, uh, for questions or conversations. And so, uh, trying to figure out the right level of exposure for your team and your organization can be really helpful. So, it, using that, that framework of performance, image, and exposure, I have found that a lot of the new managers we work with provides At least enough clarity for their to, for them to take actionable steps moving forward to become, [00:27:00] uh, that new, that great manager that they, that they can be,

Andrea: I haven’t heard of that exact acronym and approach, but I really like it because those are things we can all do.

Andrea: All work on, even if you’re not a new manager, I mean, just if you want to grow in your career and you want to get more visibility with leadership in your current role or moving towards a different role, I mean, just being aware of, yes, your tactical performance, but also how are people experiencing you and how are you showing up either at the right place, right time or wrong place, wrong time.

Andrea: Uh, micromanagement versus absenteeism. I think that’s a really very good framework that people can, can take and teach pretty easily.

Phil: Yes, very much so. It’s not complicated and it’s pretty easy to self evaluate. Uh, using that

Andrea: framework. Right. And if we can make it just a little less awkward for, especially those new managers who are getting promoted from the team that they used to be peers.

Andrea: I mean, that is awkward. So just giving them tools so they can [00:28:00] manage it a little better and they will forever be grateful, I’m sure.

Phil: Absolutely. A hundred

Andrea: percent. Well, thank you for sharing that. Um, but before we let you go for real, I have to ask you the question I ask all of our guests, which is if you would mind telling us something about yourself that most people don’t know.

Phil: Uh, I am, I am an extreme introvert. Now, from a podcast perspective, this probably doesn’t matter much, but if you know me in person at all. Uh, I think I would probably fall under what’s being called the Amber, which is when I’m in front of people, when I’m at a networking event or in front of clients, I can be.

Phil: That extroverted charismatic person. Uh, but within 60 minutes of that meeting, I will be dead inside. Uh, and so, uh, I, I am very much an introvert who needs me time, who needs time to just lay down and relax and let my mind relax. Uh, but that would be something that, uh, might be a surprise to some people.

Andrea: Yeah. And a power napper. [00:29:00]

Phil: Yes, the 90 15 power nap. Yeah, that that’s, that’s, that’s the ultimate right there.

Andrea: I love it. Well, thank you. And I’m sure there are so many of us that can relate, even those who fall on the extroverted side. I feel like after enough networking, we all, we all need a little recoup time.

Phil: Yeah, definitely. A nine day power nap.

Andrea: I’ll be listening to little John. Okay. Well, thanks everybody for joining us. It’s been a really great episode. Thanks again for coming, Phil, and we will see y’all next time. Bye.

Phil: See you all.